Covid safety

dvd8n

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I totally sympathise with your friends and the members of your family; "Any man's death diminishes me".

Just to offer an alternative perspective.

My pension pot has dropped by a quarter; I don't know if I will need to go back to work or not. However, I've been out of the labour market so long that the best that I could hope for is a greeter at ASDA. My wife is in a similar state.

About half the shops in local towns are now boarded up.

For the first four months of lockdown I suffered from toothache. Not bad enough for the dentists to open for me. "Buy painkillers".

It finally settled down just in time for another tooth to break off in my mouth. The dentists were open by then. "The NHS won't fix that till phase 4; I don't know when that will be". But magically it could be addressed privately - for £450.

My wife suffers from B12 deficiency due to an inability to absorb it orally. The consequences of B12 deficiency can be serious and irreversible. When the time for her injection came round she was denied one and offered tablets. When she explained the situation on the phone, the nurse said to her (and I **** you not) "Well what do you want me to do about it". But again it could be addressed privately for £250.

One of our friends had her diabetes pain intervention cancelled. She was subsequently housebound on high strength morphine for months.

My mother is house bound; not due to ill health but because there is literally nothing to do outside. I have had to talk here down from a literal state of hysteria three times now. When she's not actually hysterical then she's on the edge. She's also reached a state where she refuses to speak to my wife.

I could go on. For pages.

This is all down to the lockdown. The lockdown can't go on indefinitely. It's not fair to say that people don't care. Even the WHO says that lockdowns should only be a short term measure until better measures can be brought in. Better measures. That's what 'living with the virus' means. But the only better measures that the politicians can think of is to put numbers on the levels.
 

KidCurry

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AIUK Saviour
This is all down to the lockdown. The lockdown can't go on indefinitely. It's not fair to say that people don't care.
I'm everso sorry for your family struggles. My mother-in-law lost her sight over the last six months because she could not get treatment at hospital for WMD. Not because we were in lockdown, but because the hospital stopped all non-critical care due to shortages of nurses because they were treating covid patients. Lockdown freed up eye care, cancer treatment, dentists. For the Southeast lockdown ended 3 months ago.
But I still don't know what living with the virus means. If it's like living with flu that's fine. Vaccines reduce the seasonal flu load on the NHS to just, sometimes not quite, manageable. Corona virus is 10x worse. I need some one to explain how we live with this as the hospitals say we can't. Do we accept the old and vulnerable have to die? I thought for a while there must be a balance point where we can balance economy and deaths but now I think there is too much hysteresis in the system. We know lockdown stops the virus and we know washing and social distancing doesn't. And if this is the case which do we select. I see shouts for both but no research to back these up.
 
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Rabid Hamster

Well-known member
Ironman
and there you said the magic word ... economy. if the nhs collapses because there simply isnt enough money to fund it because you locked the economy down for too long ... then whats the point of locking down? the nhs eats up approaching 18% of the entire annual budget for the UK. £140 billion in 2019/20 just for england and wales
At some point, remembering its a virus that mutates over time thus you can never eradicate it, the less vulnerable in society are going to have to return full time to work to generate the money in taxes and economic activity to support the nhs and those who MUST be protected. alternatives are borrowing increasingly hard to come by/higher interest rate monies on the financial markets (something every other country is doing as well) thus mortgaging the future. OR printing money generating inflation and causing interest rates to rise so destroying businesses hanging on by their fingernails driving up unemployment.
at some point full lockdown is going to end simply because its either end it or the country crashes.
 

dvd8n

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One thing that we do know that works is an efficient test, track and quarantine system. One country that did it particularly well was Vietnam of all places. They littered the country with test facilities and traced contacts to three degrees of separation and quarantined them.

Meanwhile our governments set up centralised testing facilities too far away for half the population to reach.

Then as usual the technologically inept politicians fixated on blinking light Joe 90 style technology instead of humans to do contact detection, in particular a bug ridden app that as of a couple of weeks ago was still not working right.

This was coupled with a contract trace system that can't reliably do one degree of separation, never mind three.

And then, as if to prove that they really didn't want it to work, they put Dido "Everything She Touches Turns To ****” Harding in charge of it. Dido Harding. The only reason that they have a clue who she is is because she's appeared in front of them apologising for her ineptitude so often.

I was willing to cut the governments some slack when all this started; they were all operating in the unknown, but they've had 8 months now and the only new thing that they can offer is numbers on the lockdowns.
 

KidCurry

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AIUK Saviour
and there you said the magic word ... economy. if the nhs collapses because there simply isnt enough money to fund it because you locked the economy down for too long ...
The NHS will not collapse due to lack of money. It will collapse due to lack of trained staff. You can borrow money tomorrow, you can't make a doctor or nurse tomorrow.
 

KidCurry

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At some point, remembering its a virus that mutates over time thus you can never eradicate it...
That's not necessarily true. A virus that burns very bright can burn out as the Spanish flu did. But this is unlikely. I think the best we can do is another short term 3 week lockdown to give the current cases time to burn out. We should have done it earlier but the government lack the guts to do it. A vaccine is ever more likely, even if it's a short term vaccine that only lasts a few months, it will provide a breathing space. But what will happen is the government will ignore experts and wait until it's too late again.
 

Bandit

Active member
OK I work at a Hospital in Leeds. It's never been over run and is like a ghost town. Many consultants are sitting at home. Clinics have waiting list that will never recover.

All lock downs do is kick the can down the road and cause misery for people subjected to them. Lots of people will die from this, but it wont be the virus that kills them. Lack of treatment for other conditions simply wont happen.

People who are healthy and don't feel in danger need to be allowed to get back to normal life but respect others who are in danger. as it is we are under house arrest.

The stats don't support this mania, average age of death from covid is 82 years old and you have a 99.7 chance of not dying from it.

Oh and masks don't work either. It's like putting a petri dish on you face.
 

Rabid Hamster

Well-known member
Ironman
sorry kidcurry but we may already have passed a tipping point in the economy and your rather naive assertion " You can borrow money tomorrow " is totally wrong. the Government’s deficit has gone far beyond the 90 per cent debt to GDP tipping point. this is virtually impossible using spending cuts and tax rises to get rid of. All thats left is inflation. I dont know if you were around in the 70's but I was and that was a freaking nightmare.
the money markets do not have the funds to simply hand money to every country on the planet. this isnt the same as going to the bank for an overdraft.
 

Bandit

Active member
The NHS will not collapse due to lack of money. It will collapse due to lack of trained staff. You can borrow money tomorrow, you can't make a doctor or nurse tomorrow.
It takes three years to train a nurse now as they are all "students" no more on the job training. It will collapse due to corruption and incompetence. The money they waste ( that I see ) would make your eyes water
 

Rabid Hamster

Well-known member
Ironman
there are 1.5 million people employed in the nhs .... but just 150,000 doctors and a little over 330,000 nurses and midwives. just how many more staff can be employed without bankrupting the UK? the nhs is something like the 5 or 6th biggest employer in the world
 

KidCurry

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AIUK Saviour
sorry kidcurry but we may already have passed a tipping point in the economy and your rather naive assertion "
The government are still borrowing and will borrow a lot more yet. I was alive to see the end of WW2 rationing. We finished paying our WW2 debut only 14 years ago. It will take a long time to pay back.
there are 1.5 million people employed in the nhs .... but just 150,000 doctors and a little over 330,000 nurses and midwives. just how many more staff can be employed without bankrupting the UK? the nhs is something like the 5 or 6th biggest employer in the world
There aren't any more to employ. The NHS has been massively underfunded for so long it only just functions without a pandemic. And here is where we are, with screwed up priorities where £100billions is more important than a working health system.

Without a vaccine we all loose, there will be no winners, that die was cast many years ago.
 
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Bandit

Active member
The government are still borrowing and will borrow a lot more yet. I was alive to see the end of WW2 rationing. We finished paying our WW2 debut only 14 years ago. It will take a long time to pay back.
You won't be paying it, future generations will, all for a gross overreaction to a virus you have to be tested for to see if you have it.
 

KidCurry

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You won't be paying it, future generations will, all for a gross overreaction to a virus you have to be tested for to see if you have it.
Yes, although I and future generations will be paying for it. Hopefully they won't need to pay as much for the next pandemic.
... all for a gross overreaction to a virus you have to be tested for to see if you have it.
I would agree absolutely if one person could tell me what the right course of action is. New Zealand is at one end of the response, Sweden maybe the other, I don't know if any non third world country has just let the virus run it's course. But New Zealand seem to be in a far stronger position for economic recovery than the UK.
 
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Bandit

Active member
Yes, although I and future generations will be paying for it. Hopefully they won't need to pay as much for the next pandemic.
I would agree absolutely if one person could tell me what the right course of action is. Do we let people die to protect the economy or do we save lives and damage the economy. My feeling is we save lives and rebuild an economy over the long term rather than throw the vulnerable under the economy bus. But I can see equally why people think otherwise. The GD is already over 100pc and forecast to get to 120pc if no vaccine is forthcoming.
Thomas Jefferson quote "I prefer dangerous freedom over peaceful slavery"

A vaccine that works is a pipe dream

The same number of people will die regardless. Show me evidence lock downs, masks and social distancing works? As I have said, lock downs delay the inevitable. Shield the vulnerable and let others live their life in freedom, however I suspect this has way more to do with politics than a virus. The wealth transfer that's going on between rich and poor is off the charts. The middle class is all but dead in the water now.

Neither you or I have a say in any of this. Welcome to a communism
 

KidCurry

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AIUK Saviour
A vaccine that works is a pipe dream. The same number of people will die regardless....
Measles - almost eradicated until anti vac brigade causing a resurgence.
Polio - only two endemic countries left in the world.
Small Pox - no cases in the world since 1977
Hib disease - vaccine was licensed in 1985 now eliminated in the developed world.
Whooping cough
Tuberculosis
Rabies - animal vaccine

Pandemics usually last for a year to 18 months, after that they either disappear or become less destructive. The Spanish flu disappeared, or the flu pandemics of 1957 or 1968. If covid-19 follows the same path we should see signs of weakening around March thru August next year.

As I have said, lock downs delay the inevitable.
Lockdowns prevent ICU beds running out and save lives.

Shield the vulnerable ....
In the best of all possible worlds, but in this one I don't know how this is done. So many need carers, and outside help, GP, nursing, hospital visits, it is impossible. I'm optimistic a vaccine will provide some relief and therefore hopeful that lives can be saved until then.

Whatever the route this virus and government take I hope to see the same old faces on the shooting line again before too long.
 

Bandit

Active member
Measles - almost eradicated until anti vac brigade causing a resurgence.
Polio - only two endemic countries left in the world.
Small Pox - no cases in the world since 1977
Hib disease - vaccine was licensed in 1985 now eliminated in the developed world.
Whooping cough
Tuberculosis
Rabies - animal vaccine

Pandemics usually last for a year to 18 months, after that they either disappear or become less destructive. The Spanish flu disappeared, or the flu pandemics of 1957 or 1968. If covid-19 follows the same path we should see signs of weakening around March thru August next year.

Lockdowns prevent ICU beds running out and save lives.

In the best of all possible worlds, but in this one I don't know how this is done. So many need carers, and outside help, GP, nursing, hospital visits, it is impossible. I'm optimistic a vaccine will provide some relief and therefore hopeful that lives can be saved until then.

Whatever the route this virus and government take I hope to see the same old faces on the shooting line again before too long.
1.Your first point. Covid is a flu like virus. It mutates unlike the others you have listed, we have this problem with normal flu. it changes all the time
2. ICU beds have never been over run in this country. The 4000 bed hospital bed in London was never used to anything like it's capacity. same goes for the 500 bed hospital at Harrogate that had no more than 35 patients in it
3.the lives saved are eclipsed by the lives lost by other things. The waiting list for the NHS will be 10 million people by xmas. many with cancer and heart conditions. not to mention the economic mess...All for no measurable gain at all.

I think this dude sums up my opinion of this situation
 

B0rndriller

New member
For the first four months of lockdown I suffered from toothache. Not bad enough for the dentists to open for me. "Buy painkillers".

It finally settled down just in time for another tooth to break off in my mouth. The dentists were open by then. "The NHS won't fix that till phase 4; I don't know when that will be". But magically it could be addressed privately - for £450.
So as a practicing dentist I'll tell you our side of the story. However please be aware that the rules governing dentistry actually are different depending on if you are in England, Scotland, Wales or NI.
This relates to England only.
When you say your pain wasn't enough to warrant opening, us high street dentists were told to close to our patients, but required to stay accessible over the phone so we could direct people in need to Urgent Dental Care centres that were set up locally.
We were categorically told not to see people ourselves.
Now the bad news is that these UDC's were the very definition of postcode lottery. I work on the border between Derbyshire and staffs and the UDC's in Derbyshire opened well before Staffordshire. But I wasn't allowed to send my patients to them even though some of them lived there. I just couldn't access the computer system.
The UDC in my area when it opened would only extract teeth, nothing else.
NHS dentistry has a chief dental officer for each country and the English CDO would regularly go radio silent for weeks on end, whilst the Scottish, Welsh and Irish departments were in regular contact via social media as well as the official websites.
Now any dentist providing NHS dentistry has to abide by the Standard Operating Procedure published by the powers that be.
No question, break the rules you risk losing your funding. However the CDO has also now said she does not write policy for private care so now we are left with the situation where a dental practice is prevented from providing care under the NHS in some situations, but is allowed to provide care privately which understandably looks like a fiddle, but remember when you pay an NHS treatment fee, that is a subsidised amount. The true cost of care is much higher. Particularly post covid as the hoops we have to jump though to treat people are greater.
My practice has spent over £50k in air purifiers alone. We have to incorporate fallow time after each treatment, which can be up to 1 hour where we cannot see another patient. Several other changes adding challenges etc.
So yes, it's a terrible situation for all. I am aware of more than a few practices that have gone bust due to it, just be very sure we are as unhappy about it as you are
 

dvd8n

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So as a practicing dentist I'll tell you our side of the story. However please be aware that the rules governing dentistry actually are different depending on if you are in England, Scotland, Wales or NI.
This relates to England only.
When you say your pain wasn't enough to warrant opening, us high street dentists were told to close to our patients, but required to stay accessible over the phone so we could direct people in need to Urgent Dental Care centres that were set up locally.
We were categorically told not to see people ourselves.
Now the bad news is that these UDC's were the very definition of postcode lottery. I work on the border between Derbyshire and staffs and the UDC's in Derbyshire opened well before Staffordshire. But I wasn't allowed to send my patients to them even though some of them lived there. I just couldn't access the computer system.
The UDC in my area when it opened would only extract teeth, nothing else.
NHS dentistry has a chief dental officer for each country and the English CDO would regularly go radio silent for weeks on end, whilst the Scottish, Welsh and Irish departments were in regular contact via social media as well as the official websites.
Now any dentist providing NHS dentistry has to abide by the Standard Operating Procedure published by the powers that be.
No question, break the rules you risk losing your funding. However the CDO has also now said she does not write policy for private care so now we are left with the situation where a dental practice is prevented from providing care under the NHS in some situations, but is allowed to provide care privately which understandably looks like a fiddle, but remember when you pay an NHS treatment fee, that is a subsidised amount. The true cost of care is much higher. Particularly post covid as the hoops we have to jump though to treat people are greater.
My practice has spent over £50k in air purifiers alone. We have to incorporate fallow time after each treatment, which can be up to 1 hour where we cannot see another patient. Several other changes adding challenges etc.
So yes, it's a terrible situation for all. I am aware of more than a few practices that have gone bust due to it, just be very sure we are as unhappy about it as you are
Thanks for replying. I'm absolutely not blaming the dentists; I know that they are working under rules not of their making, and I am in fact grateful that my dentist furnished me a way of getting my teeth fixed.

However it does rankle that the same dentist in the same room can fix a problem if money is thrown at them and it demonstrates that the problem is regulation based rather than logistical. And it is also unfair that people can get treatment if the money can be rustled up by a family wheras others without the money are left to suffer.
 

B0rndriller

New member
Thanks for replying. I'm absolutely not blaming the dentists; I know that they are working under rules not of their making, and I am in fact grateful that my dentist furnished me a way of g

However it does rankle that the same dentist in the same room can fix a problem if money is thrown at them and it demonstrates that the problem is regulation based rather than logistical. And it is also unfair that people can get treatment if the money can be rustled up by a family wheras others without th
Thanks for replying. I'm absolutely not blaming the dentists; I know that they are working under rules not of their making, and I am in fact grateful that my dentist furnished me a way of getting my teeth fixed.

However it does rankle that the same dentist in the same room can fix a problem if money is thrown at them and it demonstrates that the problem is regulation based rather than logistical. And it is also unfair that people can get treatment if the money can be rustled up by a family wheras others without the money are left to suffer.
It wouldn't be so bad if the regulations all made sense.
Some people advocate mopping the floors after every single treatment.
Which is only logical if you are the type of patient who regularly licks the floor, or the soles of your shoes.....
 
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KidCurry

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AIUK Saviour
My next door neighbor is a nurse. She and others were at breaking point in late march/april. From the outside the NHS coped. On the inside they struggled with pressure and stress. She was going to leave.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying you are wrong Bandit and I'm right, I just don't know. As an engineering manager I learned you had to make decisions fast. It didn't matter so much if they were wrong, but you could act quickly on the outcome. We should have locked down earlier in the first wave and again in the second. Instead we are walking the worst of both worlds.
 
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