Crazy crossbow!

dvd8n

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If they license that they'll license all bows. It'll just be easier.

And to see what that'll mean then have a look at the Scottish airgun regs. It'll cost you about fifty quid a year. You'll need to fix them to the fabric of your house. Dealers will have to be licensed. Etc etc ad nauseum.
 

4d4m

Active member
Any club or range where rule 210 from the rules of shooting applies. prohibits the use of a crossbow with a latch weight of more than 90lbs So there is a ban already already in place
Also who bought up the subject of a legislative ban I don't remember saying anything about a legal ban?? All I said is that there should be a licence. that is very different .
I only used the word ban because you had in the previous post. I meant licencing via legislation, but the legislation was the main point. It would need legislation to introduce the legal requirement for a licence.

The prohibition is for AGB tournaments, I wouldn't call it a ban really. Rule 210 is 95 lbs by the way ;)
But being at the latch, there are probably some quite beefy compound crossbows that are actually allowed under said rule. I think that one in the OP is out due to a 15" powerstroke and being somewhat difficult to cock with no aids, but it would be quite amusing to find something similar that could get in under AGB rules.
 

jerryRTD

Well-known member
I only used the word ban because you had in the previous post. I meant licencing via legislation, but the legislation was the main point. It would need legislation to introduce the legal requirement for a licence.

The prohibition is for AGB tournaments, I wouldn't call it a ban really. Rule 210 is 95 lbs by the way ;)
But being at the latch, there are probably some quite beefy compound crossbows that are actually allowed under said rule. I think that one in the OP is out due to a 15" powerstroke and being somewhat difficult to cock with no aids, but it would be quite amusing to find something similar that could get in under AGB rules.
Yes and no, yes I mis read the draw weight and no it is not just for tournaments. I don't know what you do at your club but at mine ALL the rules of shooting are adhered to. If you have an accident with an nonconforming cross bow then you will probably be without insurance cover.
 

little-else

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When I started shooting a FAC was £15 and a shotgun cert was £2 and that was a must issue rather than showing good reason. Now it costs £88 and the police may raise objectiosn to the issue without actually having any real grounds to do so and in reality the number fo firearms offences has risen as a result of the legislation failing to do anything about those who dont obey the law in the first place being the problem, not the law abiding. Statistically speaking police officers are more likely to commit crime than a FAC holder so the checking procedure should be the other way round.
And we are back to the old chestnut of insurance. yes, a club is insured for certain acivities but insurance is there to provide soem protection when things dont go to plan. that is now settled with the business interruption insurance court decision so it isnt an issue as long as the club isnt neglectful or dishonest. Shooting with a very powerful crossbow on an archery field is a matter of occupiers liability rather than a ban because of AGB insurance worries.

Licencing of bows wont just affect bows. I used to reload my cartridges and for some calibres eve had to turn up my own brass as the cartridge was so obsolete. Now there is no legal requiremtn to show any Id when buying propellant powder, primers, reforming ies and presses ect but no gunshop will ever sell you any of those without sight of your FAC. Why? the police will shut them down if they dont obey the restrictions placed upon them. For a gunsmith to deactivate a gun nowadays yu ahve to have a police officer present to amke sure that you are doing it properly in some contabularies. In Kent they will accept a live videolink to your workshop whilst you are choppingup a gun. needless to say there is a cost involved. Nothing in the Firearms Act around such strictures but the ACPO, (a private company but mouthpiece for senior plod that tell the Home Secretary what to do or esle) have guidelines and any firearms enquiry officer who happens to have 22 years service in the marines to call upon as experience will be disciplined and sacked if they dont follow this as a minimum to inconvenience the dealers.
So, arrows on certificate? what about piles, nocks, bowstring? Your fletching jig getting inspected once every 3 years?
I gave up shooting because of ill health and wold hate to lose my only real enjoyment because a group of peopel agreed amongst themselves it was OK to throw certain archers to the wolves as long as they dont get eaten themselves. That methodology has failed 3 times with firearms act amendments and Scotland WILL suffer more than england because they have a leadership that has a particular doctrine for absolute control at its heart but we will all suffer, not just the sacrificial lambs.
Can I see a use for such a compound crossbow? I would love to see one used with suitable arrows for flight shooting or the equivalent of long range pistol so loosing off at a boss at 200yds would be a worthwhile challenge
 

4d4m

Active member
^^^^ This

Can I see a use for such a compound crossbow? I would love to see one used with suitable arrows for flight shooting or the equivalent of long range pistol so loosing off at a boss at 200yds would be a worthwhile challenge
I too would love to try long range target, flight, clout and field with a powerful crossbow.

@jerryRTD My club is now independent of AGB so it's academic for us. But most of us tended anyway to use club facilities for informal practice and (shock, horror) fun shooting, not shooting rounds. Still safe and controlled of course. We're a very small club anyway so if one of the established members wanted to try a bow like that we'd probably first have a grown up conversation about overshoot and boss overpenetration. It would be different if a beginner showed up with one though.
 
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jerryRTD

Well-known member
When I started shooting a FAC was £15 and a shotgun cert was £2 and that was a must issue rather than showing good reason. Now it costs £88 and the police may raise objectiosn to the issue without actually having any real grounds to do so and in reality the number fo firearms offences has risen as a result of the legislation failing to do anything about those who dont obey the law in the first place being the problem, not the law abiding. Statistically speaking police officers are more likely to commit crime than a FAC holder so the checking procedure should be the other way round.
And we are back to the old chestnut of insurance. yes, a club is insured for certain acivities but insurance is there to provide soem protection when things dont go to plan. that is now settled with the business interruption insurance court decision so it isnt an issue as long as the club isnt neglectful or dishonest. Shooting with a very powerful crossbow on an archery field is a matter of occupiers liability rather than a ban because of AGB insurance worries.

Licencing of bows wont just affect bows. I used to reload my cartridges and for some calibres eve had to turn up my own brass as the cartridge was so obsolete. Now there is no legal requiremtn to show any Id when buying propellant powder, primers, reforming ies and presses ect but no gunshop will ever sell you any of those without sight of your FAC. Why? the police will shut them down if they dont obey the restrictions placed upon them. For a gunsmith to deactivate a gun nowadays yu ahve to have a police officer present to amke sure that you are doing it properly in some contabularies. In Kent they will accept a live videolink to your workshop whilst you are choppingup a gun. needless to say there is a cost involved. Nothing in the Firearms Act around such strictures but the ACPO, (a private company but mouthpiece for senior plod that tell the Home Secretary what to do or esle) have guidelines and any firearms enquiry officer who happens to have 22 years service in the marines to call upon as experience will be disciplined and sacked if they dont follow this as a minimum to inconvenience the dealers.
So, arrows on certificate? what about piles, nocks, bowstring? Your fletching jig getting inspected once every 3 years?
I gave up shooting because of ill health and wold hate to lose my only real enjoyment because a group of peopel agreed amongst themselves it was OK to throw certain archers to the wolves as long as they dont get eaten themselves. That methodology has failed 3 times with firearms act amendments and Scotland WILL suffer more than england because they have a leadership that has a particular doctrine for absolute control at its heart but we will all suffer, not just the sacrificial lambs.
Can I see a use for such a compound crossbow? I would love to see one used with suitable arrows for flight shooting or the equivalent of long range pistol so loosing off at a boss at 200yds would be a worthwhile challenge
The one large flaw in your argument it that there is nothing that goes bang in an arrow (or bolt.) you can turn up cartridge it's just a bit of brass the problem comes with the propellant. The propellant in the case of a bow and arrow is NOT in the arrow ( so no checks on fletches piles etc )it is in the archer. It is not stored so that it can be released by anyone the archer must remain in control of the bow and thus the energy. A crossbow has the propellant energy stored within the bow it self so that it can be released at virtually any time by virtually anyone I have a licence for my motorbike no one seems to have a problem with that. Why shouldn't a high power crossbow be regarded in the same way??? Does any one think that having a driving licence is not necessary??
 

4d4m

Active member
Sorry but that's such a huge strawman argument. Your licence is not to own that motorbike, it's to ride any similar one on the public road.

Also, the risks of something going wrong driving a motor vehicle are way higher than any crossbow. Not remotely the same thing.
 

jerryRTD

Well-known member
Sorry but that's such a huge strawman argument. Your licence is not to own that motorbike, it's to ride any similar one on the public road.

Also, the risks of something going wrong driving a motor vehicle are way higher than any crossbow. Not remotely the same thing.
You missed the point by a good country mile indeed my licence is not to own that motorcycle. If it were i would have to have two licences as I have two bikes. IIf I have the licence I can own as many as I want. As for what standard has to be attained, basics competency should be enough The same as a driving test
As for the risk of bow verses bike i do not accept you view, as a 70 year old biker I have never written off a bike or had a serious accident.
 
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English Bowman

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Any club or range where rule 210 from the rules of shooting applies. prohibits the use of a crossbow with a latch weight of more than 90lbs So there is a ban already already in place
Also who bought up the subject of a legislative ban I don't remember saying anything about a legal ban?? All I said is that there should be a licence. that is very different .
Remember that not all clubs are registered to AGB, there is NFAS and EFAA, not to mention un-affiliated clubs that have their own insurance.
 

4d4m

Active member
Nope I got the point, which is that your comparison is utterly invalid. So you think that because you have never had a serious accident there aren't vastly higher risks with motorcycles on the road than from bows or crossbows? I also note you qualified it with serious; so you have had accident(s).

Just compare the number of people killed or seriously injured on the roads with those from bows or crossbows. Even if you adjust for the relative numbers of people using them it's not comparable.

In 2019 there were 1,752 reported road deaths in the UK, 25,945 serious injuries reported, and 153,158 "casualties of all severities" reported. Source: Department of Transport road casualties annual report for 2019 https://assets.publishing.service.g...ported-road-casualties-annual-report-2019.pdf. And that's with licencing remember, and enforcement and all sorts of road safety initiatives.

Unfortunately I can't find any stats at all for injuries caused by an arrow. But as you know yourself, the vast majority of archery injuries are self-inflicted by the archer. Muscle strains caused by being overbowed or poor form, string slap, arrows falling off rests, arrows breaking, limbs breaking, strings slipping off when trying to string bows, etc etc etc.

In terms of deliberate shootings, it's miniscule. It's so low that nobody even keeps official stats on it. There's been a couple of incidents reported in the press in the last few years I'm aware of but overall so rare as to be not worth bothering with. If you licenced crossbows over 360 fps as you suggest, anybody minded to deliberately shoot someone would just use one rated under that figure; a 95lb crossbow would do the job. So lower the speed? Before you know it you're licencing those that comply with rule 210 as well. That's not a place we want to go. But maybe you're cool with that anyway, presumably because it doesn't affect you.

Fundamentally it's a daft idea.
 

Thorvald

Active member
Yeah - in Denmark it requires a weapon license to own and shoot a crossbow. Of course it does not cover a childrens toy, but modern and mediaval crossbows. So for example if they in a medieval market wants to use crossbows, they need some sort of approval for that. I don'r know the exact rules. I just know that crossbows requires a license, must not at all be hunted with (crazy), and needs police approval of a place to shoot it.
 

little-else

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I reitertate the problem with policing of a sport and its equipment, the police make up their own rules.
Nothing in law says you cannot possess a few lumps of lead but you wont be able to buy them from a gun shop without a FAC. smokeless propellant isnt an explosive so it doesnt go bang on it own so not licenced. brass cartridges are likewise just scrap metal but go into a gunshop and ask for a couple of hundred without an FAC and you will be shown the door. gunshops record every sale of even the smallest objects, not for the taxman but because the police demand it when there is nothing in law that allows them to do so. Even spare springs etc for guns that are exempt as antiques have to be accounted for by some constabularies.
So, is the idea that the police will use the same tactics to make archery shops comply with their "rules" that far fetched? They raid premises lived in by peers of the realm who are not related in any way to an enquiry into a false allegation about someone else and seize their property when the warrant doesnt allow it and then take 4 years to give it back. A shop cant run with all of their inventory in the back of a police station on the whim of someone who has taken umbrage at being told he is acting above his authority. Also have you tried making you own plas fletches?

the other thing about firearms licences is that you have to show good reason for each and every one of them. You have to keep records of what you shoot, when and why. Dont enter comps? well you can no longer have authority for that bow but you can keep that one for practice. Limits are placed on how much ammunition you may acquire or possess. With shotgund there is no requirement in law for a SGC to posess shotgun cartridges but you cant get them without one and you may well be prosecuted for possession because mo magistrate wil ever go against the police just because the law differentiates between acquision, acquision and possession and plain old possession and plod doesnt want to understand the differences because they either dont care about the law or they see it as a matter of semantics.
With my explosives licence I had to ensure that the total amount of explosives I possessed at any one time did not exceed the limit stated on the licence and this included any fireworks, powder in cartridges etc. now when I held an explosives licence for work that limit was a quarter of a ton of mixed explosive but only 3lbs of that could be black powder. The majority was marine gelignite used for seismic surveys on a converted trawler and I happened to have been on a course so got lumbered with the responsibility but hopefully you see the irony of having someone inspect where I keep 5kg of something that doesnt go bang but have no authority to tell me what to do with enough that does to demolish an entire street because of a different application.
so, if they come after one thing you can guarantee that wont the then end of it but the beginning.
Remember why broadhead arrows were banned in the UK and who supported that ban? Allabout a deer wandering around Richmond Park with an arrow through its neck thanks to an incompetent poacher. ban supported by the British Deer Society, which despite their name are there to control deer hunting and limit it to rich people by various methods. Now I have no desire to stalk a deer for sport but would support them if only they hadnt sided with government on the banning of self loading rifles ( apart from for a one armed member of theirs) but we ended up with a ban on using bows to shoot vermin like rats and squirrels as a result. Limits were placed on how you cart your kit about under the Crime and Disorder Act yet the police have never come under attack by rioters wielding crossbows or longbows. It turned out that the only officer injured by a crossbow in the last century did it to himself to save face after failing to nab someone he was chasing but the bad press wasnt reversed as a result of his perjurious claims.
 

English Bowman

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I agree with most of what you're saying there Little-else, but broadheads are not banned by law in the UK, it's perfectly legal to buy or sell them, and to possess them, just not to shoot them at any living creature.
I have several which I use in displays and demonstrations.
 

little-else

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Ok, I should have said broadheads were banned for hunting before all arrows were, but you see the problem of creep, where the law doesnt say something but the police apply it as though it does.
Saw on local news a couple of days ago some youths werre fined for not wearing masks in their car. Eh? Now they may have breached one of the equally daft but actual covid restrictions but police boasting they are handing out £200 fines for a crime that doesnt exist is a bit stupid as someone is bound to point it out and give their bosses a lot of grief by bad publicity. That wouldnt sadden me one bit but the officers must have been given the impression that is the correct way to go about things by someone higher up or at least be given the impression that anything they do will be supported to the bitter end regardless how stupid that action is (see the story on the fining of 2 women walking whist carrying takeaway coffees and being doen for having a picnic)
 
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