Discussion on form to reduce boredom?

geoffretired

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The shot process can be so simple that eight year olds can mange with little trouble. It can become so complex that it takes a book to explain it in detail.
Frequently, the differences in form used by longbow archers, recurve and compound archers can lead to debates that have been known to get a bit heated.
I hope this thread does not turn into one of those.
If we take the sights off our bows( and the rubber bands if used) it could be possible to shoot the three types of bow at very similar rates of fire.
Some recurve barebow archers do shoot as quickly as some longbow archers; so that shows it is possible. I would guess that a compound archer might be a little slower; but probably due to the sudden drop off in peak weight that could cause a drop off of the arrow from the arrow rest.
It is easier with the older round wheel compounds; and in those days I could regularly shoot more arrows in a minute than most recurve archers.
If, for the moment, we try to accept that the three types could shoot at similar rates of fire, then I would like to pursue this " quick draw" idea a little further.
A recurver might find that the really quick draw is a little difficult at first as the previous style is trying to take over, so it needs to be overcome with some will power.
If the quick longbow archers try to slow down a little to match the recurves, they will probably find it a little tricky too, especially if they normally shoot without holding steady on aim.
I would imagine the compounders would hold things up a little, as it seems to be an essential part of their shot process.
So, getting to the point now!!
How the shot process is managed, has a time element, as well as those other aspects that need to get fitted in on the way from start to finish.
It seems that many archers, who have an established form, take the same time on every shot... or very similar.
I have heard club archers talking of world class archers, with reverence in the voices, when they explain how these archers shoot like machines. "Same time on every shot" seems to be a popular item.
If we are consistent in how we manage the shot sequence; it should take the same amount of time roughly, yes?
There seems to be a "right time" for the release to happen. Or in some cases, a "right time span" in which to get the shot away.
If the shot goes too soon, the archer hadn't really finished everything they had planned to do and the arrow set off before they were fully prepared for it.
If the shot goes off too late; they have apparently done all the bits, but still haven't released the string.
One example of this is the clicker being late to go off. Or a release aid.
When I am really busy on a task, like threading a needle for example, I have no idea of time. I am too busy keeping the needle still.
If I had to thread the needle in a short space of time, I think I would fail.
Perhaps some archery weaknesses are brought on by not being busy enough with what we are supposed to be doing. Or too involved with sticking to the right time.
 

AndyW

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I've always shot compound off fingers and without sights for most of it but I'm definitely slower than most instinctive recurve archers. I need a bit of time to settle after drawing through the peak when I'm not aiming. I don't think compound is ever truly instinctive - there's always a conscious element. Close up blank boss with no concerns about where the arrow is going I would say i would still be slower due to having to "correctly" draw and loose the bow - once you've derailed one it never goes away.
 

geoffretired

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Hi AndyW, thanks for that. I agree about compounds being slower to get to full draw and on anchor. The let off is a great benefit but it slows the draw a bit if the draw causes a " bump" that shakes the arrow off the rest.
What I was hoping to find out; is how other archers feel about the "time" element of a shot.
I feel that the quicker the shot sequence is; the easier it is to keep to a time for most of the shots. There is so little time from start to finish that even taking twice as long will only add a fraction of a second to the total. That might not be easy to measure. If the shots take 5 seconds then twice as long would be easily spotted.
Apart from noticing the timne differences, I am curious about how it affects us, when we run over our normal time. Or go too soon.
 

Kernowlad

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I completely undid a perfectly decent form by pushing myself too hard and overthinking the shot process. I’m still not as relaxed shooting as I was in the first six months of shooting. More accurate, yes, but not more relaxed.
 

jerryRTD

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I've always shot compound off fingers and without sights for most of it but I'm definitely slower than most instinctive recurve archers. I need a bit of time to settle after drawing through the peak when I'm not aiming. I don't think compound is ever truly instinctive - there's always a conscious element. Close up blank boss with no concerns about where the arrow is going I would say i would still be slower due to having to "correctly" draw and loose the bow - once you've derailed one it never goes away.
There is one way I can guaranteed to get rid of the derail. Shoot an Oneida
 

jerryRTD

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Because Oneida bows do not have cams on the end of the limbs they have nocks and string loops on the end of the limbs so no derails and no worrying about derails.
 

AndyW

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There is one way I can guaranteed to get rid of the derail. Shoot an Oneida
Oh Yes, I've always wanted to try one. Never had the opportunity. I would imagine restringing is a breeze.
I happened to see one blow back in the early 90s - nothing against Oneidas just coincidence as I've seen a few bows go pop, usually down to user error as with mine. Note to self - don't buy a stupid speed bow second hand when you don't know the history and haven't checked it.
 

AndyW

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Apart from noticing the timne differences, I am curious about how it affects us, when we run over our normal time. Or go too soon.
Yes I can relate, we do seem to have an internal time no matter the shot. Worst shots are when you second guess yourself and hold at full draw. As the years have gone on I've persuaded myself (mostly) to come down and start again. But as we get "better" the tendency is to not start again - counter intuitive but the longer we shoot the less likely we are to give up and start over - weird. If you go over your internal time invariably it ends up being a poor shot which you criticize yourself for and the spiral begins.
Thought provoking thread geoffretired - thanks.
 

geoffretired

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It seems AndyW we both have experienced the same issues. I am curious to find out what others feel about the time it takes to finish a shot.
I feel that "time" can start to get in the way of the concentration. It distracts; as can a clicker if it goes off early or late.
I was struck by two interviews on tv. One with Ken Dodd and one with a world class musician( forgotten his name)
Ken Dodd said that although he told the same joke many times( on stage) he never told it as a copy of the first time; He always wanted to tell it better each time he used it.
The musician was asked about playing some pieces many times in his long career. Did he get so used to it that it was difficult to make it sound fresh? He replied that every performance was a new creation of that piece. not a copy. A record or cd is a copy; playing live was a new performance every time.
I thought there was a lot in common with making the same shot over and over.
Each shot is "new" and although we want the arrow to land in the same place; we must accept that we are not machines when we repeat an action. I don't think we are designed to do the same things over and over.; in exactly the same way.
 

Kernowlad

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And why is that? Is it connected to being more accurate?
I think having had a few bits go wrong, I have more sources of anxiety yet generally the shots go where I want them. The recent Wabtool league has been interesting; targets you print off onto A4 paper and shoot at from a mere 5 metres. But many of the top scoring areas are absolutely tiny; I’m talking 2mm across. Most are less than a 5p in size. It takes a different sort of precision. But one I seem to have taken to pretty well.

The things I worry about are numerous; accidental draw down (an old shoulder/back injury means I don’t 100% trust my final 10% of my draw; despite only accidentally drawing down about three times in four years), I worry about the d-loop breaking, when aiming I think about TP which hit me badly two years ago, I am nervous of an accidental release which got me when I had the thumb release; this is even though I’ve not had a single accidental release with my rather excellent Carter wrist release. I worry about the arrow skipping off the rest; again very rare but it’s happened a few times leaving me in a slight panic about drawing down (what if I draw down too quickly and the arrow launches randomly?!).


It’s an odd thing; I enjoy it but am sometimes just relieved to get through a round without anything going wrong. There’s just a niggle there; a scar from a time when I so nearly sold all my kit having lost four ACGs to accidental releases.

It’s something I’d love to get rid of.
 

geoffretired

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Mat, I would use your down time to help with your worries. All the problems you have had with your archery, are normal things that happen to us all as we learn how the bows actually work. I will put that another way, we have to find out for ourselves what shooting a compound bow( or any bow) is really like. When you first try to ride a bike you fall off until you find out for yourself how to stay upright without putting your feet down.
Archery is like that.
A nervous accidental release is very frightening. Waiting for the next one isn't an option, really. You need a method of drawing that prevents such a thing. The finger on the other side of the trigger is the usual way.( behind it not in front.)
If you are worried about drawing down, practise doing it several times so you know how to do it... before you need to use it unexpectedly.
Arrows skipping off the rest is a problem waiting to happen. A wider blade is one answer. A few pound less draw weight is another. Sometimes the arrow nock is too tight on the string. You should be able to fit an arrow to the string with the string horizontal and the arrow hanging down like a pendulum. If you twist the string near the nock it should rotate easily and the arrow should continue to hang down with no movement from the string.
I would shoot at a square piece of cardboard stuck to the boss so no target pin through it( otherwise you will aim at the pin head)
Aiming just needs to be good enough for the sight ring to be over the card, so the card looks bigger than the sight ring.
You have to find out how to be relaxed by shooting in a way that allows you to find out how it feels. Feeling worried when shooting lets you feel what worried is like and not what relaxed is like.
You could take the sight off if the boss is big enough and you are close enough to it. Find out how relaxing that can be and then try the cardboard to aim at roughly and work on feeling relaxed about it.
It’s something I’d love to get rid of.
Getting rid of it is about working it out of your system; it doesn't go by wanting it to go.
 

Kernowlad

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Nocks are good, the arrow skipping off the rest hadonly happened once in a year.
It’s just that niggling doubt and a hangover from my rather disastrous experience with a hinge then a thumb release; that is the root of it all and I wish I’d just got a better wrist release instead!
It’s just that niggling doubt and it happens as I draw; once drawn and “locked” I’m fine. Aim, shoot, all good. The occasional wobble (a slight TP hangover) but all okay.
 

geoffretired

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So, you are using a wrist release, which is the one you feel most comfortable with,right.
The only thing that is left, really is a doubt about the arrow falling off the rest once a year.
I can think of a couple of things you can do about that.
One is to draw your bow in such a way that the arrow skips off; then draw in your current way so it stays securely in place. That way you will know what is right AND what to avoid. If you get it wrong, now and again you will already know what you did wrong and go back to the correct method.
Not knowing how to avoid it happening can be a worry.
Another thing to try is wind the poundage up and see how that makes things worse. Then wind it down, lower than currently, and see how that feels so much more secure.
Or change the blade of an even wider one that it can't fall off even with the draw weight way higher than you use.
The situation you describe requires you to overcome it, rather than worrying about when it will happen again.
If you do nothing; you are still where you were before.
 
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Kernowlad

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Thanks Geoff; I’ll have a little experimentation session.
The slight anxiety fluctuates; right now I’m not at all worried, sometimes I just don’t want to shoot.
It’s a bit weird!
I think the relaxed nature of field archery really helps. When the draw seems to be a “big” thing, I worry. When you just do it without really thinking, it’s okay. I almost need to remove anything that creates draw anxiety and not all of those things are obvious.
Weird!
 

geoffretired

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Matt, Let me just digress a while( with a purpose) Imagine doing long jump.You don't need to be that good at it to be able to jump a few meters.If you ever did it at school with a take off board and sand pit, you will probably know that getting the take off foot on the board helps with the distance you record. Take off 50cm behind the board robs you of 50 cm,yes?
But, in trying to get the run up just right, we make adjustments to the running and tend to jump less well as a result. The run up is vital and needs to be strong and free; not tentative and restricting.
Imagine, now, having no take off board, just a take off area. They measure from where you take off from. You run freely, and the take off foot lands in the area; and off you go. No restriction, as the area is so large.
That freedom to run as you wish, with no need to hit a small board, allows the running to be as strong as possible. You take off when you want to, not where you have to. It would allow a similar freedom if throwing the javelin was done on the same lines; you are measured from where your plant foot was when you launched. You could run up with a lot less fear of overstepping the line.
My guess is that new world records would be set soon after those less restricted rules were applied.
But with archery, the shooting line isn't the restricting influence that it is in long jump or javelin. It's the archer's feeling of being restricted by other influences. The restriction may not be visible as it is in long jump, but it is there for all to see and for the archer to feel.
When you shoot with nothing to aim at, you are shooting with no fear of missing. You relax and the form improves; the follow through feels good; shooting feels good again! Sometimes, longer distances help as we don't expect to hit dead centre so we relax and get on better as a result.
I hope that is all making sense.
Let me pick out a part of your post
When you just do it without really thinking, it’s okay.
You are correct there. It is good that YOU said it and not me. BUT........ to reach the stage of being able to do it without thinking, requires getting it learnt first; and learnt well enough that it does not generate a fear or any worries.
This is what I meant about "doing something" or just staying as you are now. The drawing, for example, can be so stressful, that you don't want to shoot. But every archer needs to draw, so we may as well do it properly; comfortably; easily; confidently.
It is a pain just drawing the bow then letting down and repeating till you feel there is no point any more.
BUT, there is a way round that. Make a shot. Shoot it, and afterwards consider, only the way you drew the bow. Was it relaxed and confident? YES/NO
You can shoot as many arrows as you want, any distance you can set up easily. No ten ring to miss, just a boss to point the arrow towards. The only think you check after the shot is how you managed the draw. KNOWING you can draw with confidence is what matters. If you aren't convinced; you are no further on.
If the arrow falls off the rest, you practice aborting and letting down the bow so that should it happen some time, there is no fear attached to aborting and letting down... YOU are prepared for that.
 

Kernowlad

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Last round of the Wabtool league shot today (week 10); all good, shot fairly well, no draw worries.
Random!
 
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