Everything is going left.

PLEASE HELP TO FUND ARCHERY INTERCHANGE
Hello again people!!
Thread title says it all. I'm getting groupings, but all well to the left of where I'm aiming.
This is a recurve, sight is an Avalon Tec X olympic, pressure button is not stuck because I have checked it with my thumb (although I suppose may be set incorrectly as the shop did it and I have no clue how to set them).
At 20m for example I aim at dead centre. I get everything in a nice 4" group, but the group is 9 o'clock bordering 6 ring 7 ring. (This is on a 40cm face, not those big ones)
Adjust sight to chase the group and the same thing happens. Adjust sight more, aim dead centre... everything lands 9 o'clock bordering 6 ring 7 ring. Hmmm...
Aim off to the right, nice group in the middle. That's not really the solution I'm after, I'd like to know what causes this to happen. I've adjusted the sight so much now that there is no more thread to adjust it further and everything still goes left. By the same amount.
The effect reproduces at different ranges, yes the group size varies and the amount left varies but it's always left. Happens indoors as well so cross heavy winds off the list. I did borrow some arrows a spine down from mine, just to see whether that made a difference. Tried them without adjusting the pressure button and exactly the same thing happened, same group size, same amount left.
It's not a massive problem, I can aim off to hit the middle but I'd love to know what could be causing this.
Any suggestions?
 

LionOfNarnia

Supporter
Supporter
What could be causing it?

Well, of the things you haven't mentioned the two that leap to mind are a) centreshot & b) anchor point.
a) is easy enough to check, there are plenty of online guides & vidz to help you.
b) you'll probably need your club coach to help you with this.

 

geoffretired

Supporter
Supporter
I would check where the string blur appears in relation to your sight. Arrows will shoot left if the string blur is off to the right. This can happen if you turn your head a long way round towards the target, leaving the string to the right of your aiming eye.
 

Murray

The American
Ironman
American Shoot
Needs a lot more information.
Left or right handed?
Are you using the left eye if left handed and right eye if right handed?
Is your centershot set up just outside center?
Where is the button pressure set (hard, medium, soft)?
Have you checked videos of your shooting (an iPad or Phone on a tripod running coaches eye is helpful with this), is your reference tight, is your loose popping out away from your neck?
String picture - do you have one?
How do the arrows fly - are they kicking out to one side or the other?
What's your nock height?
Is there any evidence of arrows catching the rest or button, e.g. any plastic being lost, fletchings getting lost?

Have a look at archers reference here (d o w n l o a d) sorry, it's old, but the setup info is still very relevant
 
Thanks for the replies and suggestions. I couldn't get on AI these last few days, just couldn't get it to work.
I am right hander. Right eye retina is damaged so am now left eye dominant.
I have a string pic, string runs down the inside of the riser, sight pin to left of string.
I wouldn't know how to adjust a pressure button correctly, but the shop charged me £44 to do it so I'd hope they did it right. (Although if the way they fletch arrows is an indicator they may have cocked it up) I push it gently with my thumb every 5 or 6 goes to be sure it isn't stuck. Centre shot is set just left of centre as far as I can tell. I don't know what coaches eye is, will look it up.
I have now got my group (8 arrows) size at 25m down to roughly 90mm.
The problem persists though, everything is to left of where the sight pin says it should be.
I'll check my nock height tomorrow, I've misplaced my gauge and it needs finding.
All the arrows are entering the target at an angle, if you imagine looking down from the top of the target all the arrows are pointing "towards 2 o'clock". They look like you'd expect if I was shooting from about 20m left of centre!! Only I'm not, I'm shooting from dead centre.
I'm not in a club yet so can't get a coach to help. I have lost fletchings at the target as arrows hit other arrows, but nothing has come off near where I stand.
There are plastic streaks on the riser from fletchings but they're from when I shoot barebow. With the longrod on I get no indication that arrows are striking riser.
Something on the bow does rattle like a sod every shot though but for the life of me I can't track down what it is.
 

LionOfNarnia

Supporter
Supporter
Are you shooting right hand/left eye (like me?) If so do you use an extended pin?
(Like below)

A 90mm group is pretty decent at 25 yds, but if all the arrows are 'landing squint' I'm curious as to what you're shooting with - what length, spine, point weight & vane type/length.

44 quid for PB adjustment? Jeez, if that ain't an incentive to learn for y'sel then nothing is!

Pin Extend 2.jpg
 
Yes, shooting right handed but am now left eye dom. I aim both eyes open. I don't have an extended pin, but will have to get one as there's no thread left on the bar!! I was going to buy 5mm threaded rod and re thread the sight for 5mm but my engineer friend is going to order me some of the correct thread and put it on for me.
I know I need to learn, I need to get into a club.
I'm ok with the group size. For now. I shot much better at school. It's the blimmin leftness of the group I can't fathom. I was always told to chase the group but I seem to be pushing the group around!
I'll have a look at the arrows tomorrow, they're in the garage. It's dark now and there's spiders in there.
 

LionOfNarnia

Supporter
Supporter
Same (both eyes open).
Same issue too - couldn't adjust far enough left without the pin falling out. That's my "Mk 5" extender, uses a super-cheap pin shaft in the holder, aluminium bit from HERE, no need for rethreading!
That MAY be the cause of your leftness, a standard pin just doesn't go far enough left for left-eye shooting - even with no crosswind. I was having major issues even at shorter ranges until I extended, now I can shoot 70m confidently.
As for the rattle, if you don't find it it'll fall off before very long anyway - then you'll know for sure ;)
 

geoffretired

Supporter
Supporter
I shoot right handed but use my left eye to aim with, due to right eye damage. If you are accidentally aiming with your left eye, with the sight set just above the arrow, I would expect you to miss the boss at 20 m. An extended sight allows you to deliberately aim with the left eye, while still seeing the string blur with the right eye, so it is a good idea to have one. When you use it, you may see two sight rings. It is the one on the right of the two that needs to be on the gold. To set it up initially, it will need to be about 2 inches out from the normal position; the same as the distance between the pupils of your eyes.
As your arrows are not that far from the gold at 20m there may be another issue still to sort.
 
When you use it, you may see two sight rings. It is the one on the right of the two that needs to be on the gold.
At the moment I get two sight rings, but it is the left one I float over the target. If I floated the right one over the target the arrows would all be in the garage wall.
Maybe when I get the longer pin and move the sight further this will change? Won't know for a couple of weeks because my engineer buddy is away at the moment.
 

geoffretired

Supporter
Supporter
Yes, with two sight rings on view using the left one is correct for the right eye to be used for aiming. Closing the good left eye would not change where the arrows are landing. The extension will allow you to use the clearer sight ring seen by the left eye.
So it would seem that arrows landing left is the result of something else, Sometimes the string gets dragged off to the right at release, causing arrows to land on the left.
 

Murray

The American
Ironman
American Shoot
I'll leave the left eye/right handed thing to the guys with experience here. I've worked with someone shooting compound left-eyed, but not recurve. It looks to me like you've just run out of enough travel to use the pin in the correct place. The string picture you have sounds like it's with your right eye, which is good (unless you're somehow anchoring on the left side of your face, which would be bad)

It could also be accounted for by using arrows which are way too stiff, but I'm making the assumption that if an archery shop adjusted the button, then they'd have at least made sure you were using arrows in the correct spine range (otherwise they're just plain incompetent and shouldn't be allowed near a bow - but that's very unlikely in my experience)
 

Murray

The American
Ironman
American Shoot
Yes, with two sight rings on view using the left one is correct for the right eye to be used for aiming. Closing the good left eye would not change where the arrows are landing. The extension will allow you to use the clearer sight ring seen by the left eye.
So it would seem that arrows landing left is the result of something else, Sometimes the string gets dragged off to the right at release, causing arrows to land on the left.
So what you're saying is : Left eye aiming, you should use the right ring. Right eye aiming, you should use the left ring. (which I agree with)

Dave is saying he uses the left image, which suggests he's using his right eye, but his right eye retina is damaaged, so I'm really confused! I think we should start out with Dave using ONE eye and closing the other (or using a blind) to remove ambiguity here.
 
sorry I'm not replying more regularly, this is a bad lurgy! I really appreciate the input from everyone!
Ok, I will try as best I can to remove some of the ambiguity.
When I was at school we did archery, and I was good at it and it was fun. Back in those days both eyes were healthy and I was a right hand right eye archer. When I got older and went up a school my new school didn't do archery so my archery stopped.
Spin forward 33 years and I'm getting back into it. In between then and now my right retina took some serious abuse so I am now left eye dominant. At least that's what all the the tests say.
I am shooting to the "left" sight pin because: when I started getting back into it I started off closing the left eye because I knew that the change in eye dominance would throw me off from what I remembered of how to shoot. Once I was getting respectable groups I'd shoot until I got a decent group of five or six arrows and then open up the left eye once I was at anchor with the sight dead centre for the next arrow. This would give me "two" sight pins, and it was the left of the two that would be the one on the dead centre. So that's what I aim to now.
Makes no difference whether I aim left eye closed or not, everything goes left of where the sight pin says it should go. Chasing the group just keeps it left. (moving away from the group does exactly what you'd expect.) Verticality is not an issue.
It's daytime so the spiders are hiding so I fetched my arrows. I have Easton Jazz 1916 light, Easton platypus xx75 1916, Easton ACC 3-04/680. All measure 29.5" from the nock groove excluding the point. I draw 38lb on my fingers at the moment, my draw length is probably not surgically consistent yet but shop measured it at 28" based on three draws (second shop measured 28.5", also based on three draws). Doesn't matter which arrows I shoot, everything goes left.
 

LionOfNarnia

Supporter
Supporter
Those spines sound just a wee bit weak - I was using 600 @ 36#, now 500 @ 44# - but I'll hazard not so weak as to cause the leftism.

As was noted, it's possible you might be 'plucking' a bit, but it will take a coach or video analysis to tell for sure. I doubt it though, if you were you'd be unlikely to be so consistent.

I still think an extended pin will make the biggest difference. It's an easy fix if you have even basic hand-skills (and a dremel!) so if you fancy having a go y'sel just DM me your street addy & I'll send you a couple of those aluminium spacers to play with - no charge, just 'pay it forward' when you can ;)

It may even be worth your while having a peek at my diary thread sometime, there may be other stuff there that chimes with your experiences too.

Hope the lurgy is defeated soon.
 

Murray

The American
Ironman
American Shoot
Thanks Dave, makes a lot of sense. SO - you've confirmed you're shooting with your right eye, that's good, but as Geoff surmised it doesn't tell us why your shot is going left.

Looking at your draw weight and arrow length, the charts would suggest 2114 X7s (.510 spine) or maybe 2014 (.579 spine). Your 1916s have a spine of .623, which means they are weaker than you'd want in an ideal world (and would be fine if they were only 28" long) - all of this is a long winded way of saying you could be getting contact issues giving odd results, although your arrows aren't a hundred miles out of the ballpark.

If the button feels very stiff, take a couple of turns off it, and maybe get a second opinion on the centershot.

Lastly, do you have any chest contact with the string (or significant arm contact)? Make sure both a clean and clear as significant chestguard or armguard contact can throw up odd results.

For checking clearance, Daktarin foot powder spray is good on dark surfaces, e.g. back end of arrows/fletches/bow window - it dries to a white powder and contact can be seen as a streak.

Hard to say more without actually seeing you shoot, but some food for thought and experimentation.

Good luck and get well soon.
 

AndyS

Supporter
Supporter
If I understand the original post correctly, part of the original issue is not just that the group is left of center in itself, but that the group doesn't move when the sight is adjusted.
Whether the spine is stiff/correct/weak, the button set correctly or not, then surely the group should still move when you adjust the sight pin and aim in a different direction - but it doesn't!

Is it possible that at some part of the shot process you are subconsciously adjusting your head position slightly in order to align your eye to the adjusted sight pin, rather than slightly changing where the bow is pointing, to align the pin to your eye?

If you imagine that at anchor, with the target and the sight pin aligned with your eye, someone adjusted the sight windage, then the three bits (target, pin & eye) would no longer align, so to align them again you could move the sight pin by slightly adjust where the bow was pointing, which is how things are intended to work. BUT you could also make the three align again by tilting or rotating your head slightly and changing the position of your eye. If you did this, then the bow would still be pointing at exactly the same point on the target despite the sight pin having moved, and so the arrows would land in the same place when released, which seems to be one of the problems you're having.
 
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