inspirational coaching

not dead yet

New member
Ironman
i went to a club yesterday, (you know who you are)
they are running a beginners course, but they do not have any club coaches.
all the beginners were shooting at 15yds on 60cm faces. and all were grouping , with the odd stray arrow.
all have good alignment with a few minor issues, but they have only been shooting a few weeks.
one gent an AI member impressed me alot. 6weeks wooden takedown 529 portsmouth. i know seasoned archers that would be happy with that using a wooden bow.
so for once i am not going to rip the coaches apart. but congratulate a club that is doing something right from day one, without the piece of paper.
by the way the intructors yesterday are all longbow archers.

well done
pete
 

geoffretired

Supporter
Supporter
Some people just know what to do without having a piece of paper that says they should know what to do.
Will those people get encouraged to become better coaches? Will they want to go through the process?Do they need to?
 

Little Miss Purple

The American
Fonz Awardee
Ironman
American Shoot
Some people just know what to do without having a piece of paper that says they should know what to do.
Will those people get encouraged to become better coaches? Will they want to go through the process?Do they need to?

does the process ACTUALLY make them a better coach?? :beer::beer:
 

geoffretired

Supporter
Supporter
Quote:
Originally Posted by geoffretired View Post
Some people just know what to do without having a piece of paper that says they should know what to do.
Will those people get encouraged to become better coaches? Will they want to go through the process?Do they need to?

does the process ACTUALLY make them a better coach??
Hi LMP, I know what you mean.
What I was getting at really is the fact that those outside may not know they are doing such a good job.Perhaps someone should know and show an interest in what they have done and may wish to do in the future. Having a paper may not make them better, but someone, showing interest in their plans, should.
I think I'm right in saying that part of the new coaching scheme is to have someone showing interest in what individual coaches are doing. County Coach working with Coaches, for example.
If someone wants more coaches, it seems there are some there who have a made a good start, yet they may never be included on the list. Just seems a shame, to me anyway.
 

Robin the Hood

New member
Quote:

What I was getting at really is the fact that those outside may not know they are doing such a good job.Perhaps someone should know and show an interest in what they have done and may wish to do in the future. Having a paper may not make them better, but someone, showing interest in their plans, should.
Hi Geoff...Even though the message is not seen from elsewhere, the great thing I think NDY was getting at is, even that piece of paper could not improve the understanding which developes between 'Archer' and 'Instructor' and that is paramount. The atmosphere around a club like that will only multiply.......Unbeatable, if you were scoring it!....:chat:

Paul....
:cheerful:
 

moo-mop

New member
does the process ACTUALLY make them a better coach?? :beer::beer:
I my experience it does, at least partially because it enables you to coach more and more, and to be sure you are coaching the correct things (by giving you someone to ask and setting up a system for coaching beginners). After that when it gets onto frameworks etc then perhaps not, but the point then is it helps others be better.
Can you give an example where being able to coach more it doesn't make the coach better?

What makes a good archer isn't scores after six weeks, it's dedication over time. The same with a coach. If you have help and support in either you will do better.
 

geoffretired

Supporter
Supporter
Hi Paul,
Thanks for that. I think I was on that sort of wavelength. It is a gift that some have and it isn't shared often enough, I feel.Perhaps the gift is not transferable; but I think the inspiration can be infectious. If there is a good coaching methodfor coaches to follow (for want of a better word) surely that method would have been formulated after experiencing the best that some offer.
 

not dead yet

New member
Ironman
I my experience it does, at least because it enables you to coach more and more, and to be sure you are coaching the correct things (by giving you someone to ask and setting up a system for coaching beginners). After that when it gets onto frameworks etc then perhaps not, but the point then is it helps others be better.
Can you give an example where being able to coach more it doesn't make the coach better?
What makes a good archer isn't scores after six weeks, it's dedication over time. The same with a coach. If you have help and support in either you will do better.
i can give you examples of long term coaches making the archers worse.

this isn't about coaching, its about instructing. dedicated archers applying themselves. they dont want 12 months coaching courses.
and i can assure you they know what their doing.
if they need help they know where to go, thats all they need.

pete
 

moo-mop

New member
Not dead yet, your above post doesn't relate at all to my point I'm afraid. The coaching courses I have seen have made the coaches better in every case and the support you get from the system is helpful in my area.
I don't really think you can claim that a, say GNAS, coaching course and support would make these coaches you admire worse either. My suspicion is that it would help them too, you might disagree but...

It is irreverent to the above whether coaching from some coaches isn't suitable for some archers and will make them worse. Nor would I be so quick to blame a coach for such a situation.
I know you do like to distinguish between coaching and instruction, but it's all the same skill, just taken to a different level.
 

Loomer

New member
Can you give an example where being able to coach more it doesn't make the coach better?
Yes, but I won't mention archery names. In my trampolining club, there are, or have been, a couple of coaches that have gone on further coaching courses to learn how to teach more moves, but have not developed their coaching skills - so the coaching hasn't got better, and probably has got worse as they are teaching more dangerous moves without understanding the technique needed to do these moves safely. I have seen similar things in archery.

NDY, I'd disagree with your distinction between instructing and coaching, after 6 weeks, the archer is definitely being coached, rather than taught. However, I would agree that these archers are doing a very good job of coaching their beginners, and should be able to be recognised as a coach without going through a 12 month course - but they would have to demonstrate that their level of knowledge and skill is consumate with having gone through that course.
 

geoffretired

Supporter
Supporter
People, being as varied as they are, I think, allows all possibilities.
There will be some who can coach with no previous training.
There will be those who can coach after training.
There will be those who get better with more training.
There will be those who get worse with some training.
There will be those who make some archers worse; while making others better.
There will be archers who get better with their coach and worse with another coach.
Perhaps that isn't the way things are supposed to be; but it is possible and chances are it has already happened in some instances.
Working in isolation, means no one, outside the immediate environment, really knows what the coaches are doing, for better or worse.
 

moo-mop

New member
a couple of coaches that have gone on further coaching courses to learn how to teach more moves
Nope sorry, that was not what I meant either (soz), I meant have you seen any coach practice coaching more and still get worse, your example says these coaches went on a course and got worse (but maybe they are doing less coaching or going beyond what they know).
However, what all courses do is give you the proven grounding which allows you practice whatever it is more e.g. convince others I know some physics, or on archery terms lets me go out to other clubs (and it's that lets you improve).
I suspect that when such coaches practice more then the taught-grounding will benefit more.

It's not a necessary process but it does help.
 

not dead yet

New member
Ironman
GONE OFF TOPIC A TAD AND FOR ONCE IT AINT ME.....

re - coaching or instructing / advising.

is liam a coach no
is ASW a coach no
would they benefit from doing a coaching course. NO

would i trust liam...yes
would i trust ASW yes. but he'd do me head in. no offence alistair.:snooty:

:beer::beer::cake::cake:

pete
 

Munsterman

New member
yes, but ASW has received high level formal training in sports science/psychology and may be considered more than qualified to get a higher level coaching qualification. Would he accept a L3+ qualification if offered on merit? Who knows!

NDY - do you have an issue with coaches per-se? You seem to be a very vocal critic of those who bother to get qualifications.
 

not dead yet

New member
Ironman
yes, but ASW has received high level formal training in sports science/psychology and may be considered more than qualified to get a higher level coaching qualification. Would he accept a L3+ qualification if offered on merit? Who knows!

NDY - do you have an issue with coaches per-se? You seem to be a very vocal critic of those who bother to get qualifications.
no 1 i know what alistair has.

no2 yes.......considering i'm a coach. like marcus says, my cat can sit in on a seminar....i did say in another thread, all coaches that i've been involved with have mucked me up......and others that i know...quite a few actually...

pete
 

Little Miss Purple

The American
Fonz Awardee
Ironman
American Shoot
Can you give an example where being able to coach more it doesn't make the coach better?

Why does the certificate mean more coaching.. 2 angles here.. the person may already be coaching as much as they are able.. and if they already have the knowledge then the certificate is an expensive bit of paper. I know of a few people that I would trust implicitly but they don't have that bit of paper for various reasons.. and I believe it would not improve their coaching skills either. :beer:
 

moo-mop

New member
Why does the certificate mean more coaching...
1. It allows you to go out and coach at other clubs - which club would accept your help if they didn't know you without a qualification (not least with child protection)

Although I knew a fair bit about archery I actively avoided coaching until I'd sorted out the qualification, as to do so was a big risk these days.

By your argument we wouldn't have any qualifications, but without them we are taking people on their word as to what they know and that limits you to only working in a small circle (i.e. those coaches you know) where they have proved that knowledge. The purpose of all qualifications is someone independent has assessed they are really at that level.

I would also say its rather wrong to judge whether others would or would not benefit from doing courses - what is of benefit would depend on the course. Whether you choose to do them depends on the goals of the coach (not all coaches want to improve same as not all archers do). I am sure there was a reason a certain coach decided to do a physiology degree, and there was a reason why I decided to do a level 1 course.

would they benefit from doing a coaching course.
You can learn by going on appropriate courses and applying that knowledge, I am quite quite sure that all the coaches you mention could benefit from certain courses, if they then are able to apply that knowledge. It might not be their goals to do so, they may have different methods etc etc but courses are one method (e.g. i also went on sports first aid course because I felt I needed to know a bit more about that). A course doesn't have to be labelled a coaching course to be just that.
 

mk1

It's an X
Supporter
Why does the certificate mean more coaching.. 2 angles here.. the person may already be coaching as much as they are able.. and if they already have the knowledge then the certificate is an expensive bit of paper. I know of a few people that I would trust implicitly but they don't have that bit of paper for various reasons.. and I believe it would not improve their coaching skills either. :beer:

I'm not at all sure that the Level 1 is designed to improve coaching skills. Levels 1's teach at Club starter level and under supervision. Its just to give you the basic skills for coping with newbies and some ideas of all the things you have to cover - especially with regard to safety.

You can of course glean these skills via other routes but them you don't get to progress to Level 2 without the Level 1 certificate.

If you think you're good and you stay out of the system then you won't help to improve it. I know several people who have qualifications at various coaching levels who made constructive comments during their training to improve the trainers delivery and knowledge!!
 

Little Miss Purple

The American
Fonz Awardee
Ironman
American Shoot
moo-mop.. you are implying that everyone with a certificate wants to spend their time doing nothing but coaching, I'm saying this is not the case so the certificate would mean nothing more to them. I'm not referring to those people that need that bit of paper and want to coach tons.. and the cost will put plenty of people off along with the schedule clashes with shoots. :beer:
 
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