Compound Bow Mike Schloesser - punches the release aid?

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jerryRTD

Well-known member
bimble,

I listened to that Easton Target Archery podcast you mentioned, and you are exactly right - they discuss Mike having issues anticipating (for which I read, punching...) the shot and as a result, him having to switch from a trigger (Target 4) in early rounds to a hinge release for the final. Clearly there's an issue there.

Perhaps he's human after all and the pressure/expectation associated with being Mr Perfect has got to him a bit.

For my part, I'm pleased that I noticed this independently whilst watching the YouTube video in my original post - it gives me some comfort that at least I can spot form flaws now and again!

It will be interesting to see where Mike goes from here and whether he switches to a hinge as his main release going forward.

chemistry
Its a difference not necessarily a flaw . I am reminded of a quote by Dietmar Trilus "the only supprise I got all year is how a badly aimed and poorly executed shot that should have been a 7 ended up in the ten"
 

geoffretired

Supporter
Supporter
The "anticipation" element is more important, I feel, than the chosen method to trigger the shot. Anticipation and hesitation are two huge factors that can ruin a well started shot. They are rather like two ends of a range of feelings. If they are not removed, they can become a habit that is hard to break. To me it seems like a "target panic" issue in the making.
Between anticipation and hesitation, there is confidence, or control of a kind.
 

KidCurry

Well-known member
Its a difference not necessarily a flaw . I am reminded of a quote by Dietmar Trilus "the only surprise I got all year is how a badly aimed and poorly executed shot that should have been a 7 ended up in the ten"
That sounds a lot like luck to me. Not something I would want to build a career around. 'twas the downfall of Napolean :)
 

KidCurry

Well-known member
It may sound a lot like luck, if you do not understand the process that is going on
If Trilus was surprised that the arrow went in the ten it is obvious he does not understand the process. If however he understood that training the body muscle memory to repeat the same shot over and over, then it should be unsurprising that the body would put the arrow in the middle even if the aim and conscious execution was out. If he is surprised that arrows go in the middle with poor execution then he is a very luck boy to get to the top.
I suspect he does understand the process and it was a throwaway comment that he didn't intend anyone taking seriously.
 
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geoffretired

Supporter
Supporter
The comment I read from Trillus was about any surprise release. "The surprise is that the arrow goes in the middle." I think he favours the command release method. A surprise release may be going off at a less than ideal time.
 

williamsga

New member
Jimmy Lutz, WA 2019 CM World Champion is a self-confessed 'puncher'. Favouring an 80% LO and a stab set up: 30"/4 -6oz Front, 12" 8 -10oz back he's certainly doesn't confirm to the usual elite set -up. This is an interesting video which contains him commenting on his release style ( with video clips). However, he does mention he wouldn't teach the style to anyone!!!!!
 

garethochse

New member
Target panic happens when archers anticipate the release (hence my book - Archery Without Anticipation). As we can see from this (and other videos) it affects the pros too. It's something all archers need to learn to recognise and deal with. If you look carefully at the video, Mike Schloesser retains supreme control of his shot - yes, his thumb is hovering above the trigger and his release is punched but the shot doesn't collapse and he still nails a 10. He's definitely struggling with target panic though: a better shot with a thumb release would see him keep his thumb on the trigger throughout, then either squeeze his whole hand to loose the shot, or pull his hand into the release using back tension. A hinge can also be punched of course...
 

jerryRTD

Well-known member
It's nice to know that there are archers out there that command, having shot that way myself since 2002 .
 

williamsga

New member
I find this a fascinating subject having experienced pretty acute 'Target Panic' first hand. It got so bad it was a case of prematurely executing before I'd acquired the boss let alone the gold!!!! Yes, I'd agree that anticipation contributes to TP but the key is what responses create the anticipation. I found a book published by Jay Kidwell in 2004 quite an interesting read on this point. The book together a resistance release and help from Graham Weller got me back on track.

I'm going to play the devil's advocate here. garethochse maintains that 'Mr Perfect' is struggling with TP but what about Jimmy Luzt? He admits to 'command shooting'. In the video I'm pretty sure he says his button is set very very very light. In his case it would seem that he is able to control any anticipation and execute the shot when he considers his dot (which is very small) is in the best place.

Rest assured I'm not in any way advocating 'punching' but it would seem some folks like Jimmy Lutz are able to make it work. That said he's only 22 so one never knows what's in store for him in the years to come:)
 

geoffretired

Supporter
Supporter
I had ten years of TP on every shot before I could acquire the gold. Once I was sorted out, I started thinking more about why or how it started.
I was self taught with compound and followed the trend at the time for light trigger and just "get on with it".
I now believe that the start was gradual. Every now and again the trigger didn't go off with the slight touch I was used to giving it. I guess that would be called a light Punch these days. The problem was that the fact the shot didn't go off as expected, caused me to collapse. I assume the good shorts were close to a collapse anyway, as I was not deliberately drawing hard into the soft valley of those times.
It seems now that all this could have been avoided if I had been aware of the dangers of a soft draw and a hair trigger.
Anticipation can be a real killer and if you don't know anything about it; it can bring real misery.
 

williamsga

New member
I would imagine there are quite a few folks who can identify with geoffretired's experiences. My personal view is that getting a compound beginner to use a resistance style release lays a good foundation for unanticipated execution.
 

geoffretired

Supporter
Supporter
Williamsga, I think TP had a very bad press in the "olden days". Some apparent solutions seemed to assume the archer was just a bit timid and needed a bit of a kick. Some would not talk about it in case others caught it.
It seems to me that there are mild forms that are not considered to be TP at all, so the sufferer feels it is just something they get wrong now and again.
The unanticipated release is something I feel gets very little attention; compound or recurve or any bow really. The unanticipated release is something many archers never experience. Some do experience it when offered help such as with a resistance release aid. The experience can frighten the archer to the point where they believe they did something wrong and are not inclined to repeat it.
I think many archers grow into a "stifled" form of shooting where anticipation isn't obvious. The dead loose or forward loose get attention but often it is the fingers that are blamed. Too much shooting with hitting the gold being high on the agenda, can lead to a stilted type of shot which I feel is just another version of anticipation.
 

jerryRTD

Well-known member
I would imagine there are quite a few folks who can identify with geoffretired's experiences. My personal view is that getting a compound beginner to use a resistance style release lays a good foundation for unanticipated execution.
Not always, some times it is the opposite, they can become disconnected from the shot, and feel that the release is not going off when it should This leads to 'yanking' and TP. Unlike the archer in the video I would teach command shooting, not punching.
 

geoffretired

Supporter
Supporter
Jerry, you have hit upon a very important issue there. When SHOULD the shot go off??
When they THINK it should? Or when they expect it to? Or when.....
 

jerryRTD

Well-known member
Jerry, you have hit upon a very important issue there. When SHOULD the shot go off??
When they THINK it should? Or when they expect it to? Or when.....
Why is it that simple questions have complicated answers Geoff?? ( there we are I have just asked a simple question).
If they THINK it should happen then they are expecting it to happen. Once we accept that then what is needed is a reference time frame and that should be the shot sequence .
OK you have settled in the aim, the pin is floating in the middle of the target, you apply the back tension , the float gets smaller, you keep on pulling and the shot goes off. then If it does not go off then the float will become larger and the shot will be degraded.
.For me and probably most command archers the shot sequence is different after coming to the aim back tension is applied and held on. I wait until the pin float is at it's smallest and I trigger the shot. If I do not the the pin float will get bigger and the shot will be compromised
No anticipation (you only anticipate things you do not have direct control over. If you anticipate rain you take an umbrella you have no control over the rain)
 
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geoffretired

Supporter
Supporter
Jerry, thanks for that. I am not sure that I agree about it being a simple question. Why do so many "failed shots" tend to fail as a result of the release happening at the wrong time?
Let me just go back some steps to the first shots archers make as new club members. They often tend to fit into one of two groups. Those who release as soon as the string hits their face. AND those who get to full draw and start to aim and wobble a bit and seem to be wondering when they should let go.
My tendency is to have a word with the "touch and go shooters" if they were beginners that I had been working with. I tend to explain that there could be several things "not in place" if they shoot so quickly.( The bow arm might still be trying to move the sight to the gold; the draw hand might have missed the jaw and will send the arrow higher. etc etc)
Those who wobble at full draw, seeming to be undecided, will be offered advice too. Usually along the lines that they seem to be hesitating about when to release. and I ask if there is something they aren't clear about.
 

KidCurry

Well-known member
Are there not two issues being mixed here? TP is apprehension of the shot taking place when the arrow not in the middle of the gold, developing into releasing too early or not being able to acquire a stable sight position. And a flinch which is the release not activating the second the archer expects it to following a commanded execution and the body begins the follow through.
 

geoffretired

Supporter
Supporter
I think there are two issues, as you suggest. I also think that the flinch can lead to the apprehension and the TP. Wondering when the next flinch might happen can almost bring it on.
 
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