Compound Bow Mike Schloesser - punches the release aid?

jerryRTD

Well-known member
Are there not two issues being mixed here? TP is apprehension of the shot taking place when the arrow not in the middle of the gold, developing into releasing too early or not being able to acquire a stable sight position. And a flinch which is the release not activating the second the archer expects it to following a commanded execution and the body begins the follow through.
IO would add another cause of flinch ,drifting off the back wall. The main cause of that is lack of back tension A major factor in just about every type of TP is lack of back tension.
 

KidCurry

Well-known member
IO would add another cause of flinch ,drifting off the back wall. The main cause of that is lack of back tension A major factor in just about every type of TP is lack of back tension.
Lack of back tension is definitely an issue, probably for far more archers that TP or flinching put together. But I think lack of back tension is primarily due to too much focus on the aim and release. How much it is part of the cause, I haven't really considered it. When I shot compound I often came off the wall due to too much aim, but it never caused any issues other than a high arrow impact. Having said that, focusing on back tension instead of the aim may sort out many TP issues taking attention away from aiming.
I wonder how many people shooting instinctive, and I use the term only for want of a better one, suffer target panic :)
 

geoffretired

Supporter
Supporter
Interesting question about instinctive shooters.
I would guess that TP is far more likely to happen to archers who shoot with "time to spare". In other words, with time to think about too much, or too many items. Over aiming, for example, might allow time to think about when to do the next bit. Then they forget something that they were doing; without thinking in words about it.
 
Far be it from me to criticise his technique (given the results it delivers!), but watching this recent footage I couldn't help but notice that Mike Schloesser seems to punch the heck out of his release aid on every shot. Looks to me like his thumb hovers over the barrel/trigger, gradually 'approaches' it in a series of little jerks, and then as soon as he actually touches it - BAM - he depresses (punches?) it fully and the shot is gone.

You can see it very clearly here (at 1:40, for example):

Am I right? does he always shoot like this?

chemistry
There are a number of compound release shooters who punch their release aids ... successfully. (I use as a criterion for a surprise release is that the coach should not be able to see the finger or thumb move to trip the release.) Those who can shoot with a conscious release, I think Tim Gillingham is another, have a particular personality that can pull this off. Those people seem to be rare. The rest of us just get target panic through anticipation of the release tripping. As a matter of course, when I teach release aids, I default to a surprise/unconscious release, if for no other reasons than it is more likely to work and if the archer wants to try the other approach, it is easier going from unconscious to conscious than vice-versa.
 

geoffretired

Supporter
Supporter
Steve I am not a fan of punching the release , for the same reasons as you I feel.
I wonder, though, if the reason punching is so often seen as "not best practice" could have something to do with that method being learnt in error by some archers, and learnt badly.
Could I have been saved from severe target panic if I had been taught properly to make sure I was still pulling when I triggered the shot, as opposed to triggering and losing back tension through ignorance of the fact?
 

garethochse

New member
Are there not two issues being mixed here? TP is apprehension of the shot taking place when the arrow not in the middle of the gold, developing into releasing too early or not being able to acquire a stable sight position. And a flinch which is the release not activating the second the archer expects it to following a commanded execution and the body begins the follow through.
they're one and the same issue - TP - both symptoms you describe originate with the archer anticipating the release. For 99% of people, a great shot will come from being able to settle on target (back tension, technique, trusting your aim etc) and then executing a great shot without anticipation (focus on speed and control of release v aiming). There are a few who can get onto target and then 'dynamically' execute their release, but that's a freedom they earn from superb technique - quick sight pic, steady aim, consistent release - and perhaps a different personality type. For us mortals, learn to shoot every shot by surprise.
 
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jerryRTD

Well-known member
they're one and the same issue - TP - both symptoms you describe originate with the archer anticipating the release. For 99% of people, a great shot will come from being able to settle on target (back tension, technique, trusting your aim etc) and then executing a great shot without anticipation (focus on speed and control of release v aiming). There are a few who can get onto target and then 'dynamically' execute their release, but that's a freedom they earn from superb technique - quick sight pic, steady aim, consistent release - and perhaps a different personality type. For us mortals, learn to shoot every shot by surprise.
I don't agree with your figure of 99% probably nearer 75%. maybe more .
As for you mortals , some of you can learn to command shoot, as you have said. settle on target, back tension. aim, .Once you have got to that point it does not matter how the release is done command or surprise the bow is aligned the arrow will hit the spot.
I did not realise at the time but the the thing that helped me was to learn to shoot compound limited. off fingers you have to keep the back tension on or you don't get a clean loose. Because the opening of the fingers takes mental effort you always know when you are going to loose the arrow. you have to command it to happen.
How long did you try using a wrist release. before you got a hand held?
 

garethochse

New member
How long did you try using a wrist release. before you got a hand held?
Slightly different progression on my side:
- started with recurve, switch to compound because of shoulder injury/surgery.
- tried wrist release, settled on thumb. Developed TP (too light trigger, poor release form etc).
- So started the TP journey. Switched to hinge. Different hinge. Then tension release (stan PerfX) which I love. All the while researching the issue, doing the exercises, refining shot sequence etc.
- Then elbow injury so switched to wrist release (far less pain when drawing) and I haven't gone back i.e. wrist is now my default release (finger is a deep hook, and release activated consciously using back tension not finger movement).
- I still practice with hinge and tension releases
- Lastly, I can command my shot or get a surprise release. I practice both. I don't want to waste a steady hold on the X, but want to keep the timing of the shot uncertain too. The quest for balance!
- TP under control. Consistently 300 with ±50x on the NFAA/IFAA 5-spot at 20yrds.
 

geoffretired

Supporter
Supporter
garethochsem it seems you developed TP for the same reasons I did.( too light trigger, poor release)
It seems to me that we could have avoided TP had we had a better start with the compound. Had I known the dangers that can cause the creeping and flinching, I feel I could have kept clear of TP.
 

KidCurry

Well-known member
they're one and the same issue - TP - both symptoms you describe originate with the archer anticipating the release.
Yes they both stem from the knowledge that the archer must make the shot but one originates in apprehension, the other anticipation.
Because the opening of the fingers takes mental effort you always know when you are going to loose the arrow. you have to command it to happen.
I think for many finger shooters it is not a mental effort but an unconscious reaction to clicker or sight picture.
 
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jerryRTD

Well-known member
- Lastly, I can command my shot or get a surprise release. I practice both. I don't want to waste a steady hold on the X, but want to keep the timing of the shot uncertain too. The quest for balance!
- TP under control. Consistently 300 with ±50x on the NFAA/IFAA 5-spot at 20yrds.
Very useful to be able to do both. It will enable you to shoot in the calmer patches on a windy day.
Which finger do you use on the trigger? I find that if I use the middle finger it allows me to use the index knuckle to anchor on the back of the jaw bone just below the ear, a good solid bone to bone contact.
 
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KidCurry

Well-known member
What is the best way to detect early onset of TP? I think many identify it too late and the road to recovery is hard. Flinching on the release is reasonably straight forward but how do you detect the gold shy part of TP early?
As a compound archer I punched on the odd occasion when I was running out of time and had to force a shot and was easy to fix, but have never had any issue with acquiring the gold. How does it manifest itself early?
 
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geoffretired

Supporter
Supporter
An interesting question; not sure I know the answer, but at present I think the "gold shyness" is very closely linked to the flinching.
When shooting with no sight or no target to aim at (and miss) I could shoot without flinching and without feeling any need to struggle at the front arm.
Gold shyness, if it is the inability to get the sight round the gold, will be obvious to the archer. It generates a kind of panic or stress as you know you are failing to do the shots in the way you know they can be done.
I was totally unable to get the sight round the gold. It was stuck in the red or blue. So I was gold shy ,I suppose. BUT it was explained to me in different words.... I was told it was impatience with the trigger. I was triggering before getting the sight round the gold.
Both descriptions were true. IF I could have waited before triggering I might have been able to settle the sight round the gold.
But similarly; if I had been able to get the sight round the gold, I might have been able to wait longer and trigger at the right part of the shot.
The two were closely linked I believe.
 

KidCurry

Well-known member
I have never had any gold shyness. Happy to sit in the gold all day. The flinch at release was because I had expected the release to go and it didn't. Practice with hinge fixed it over night. So my experience is they are not the same, but that's just my experience.
But gold shyness is physiological, a fear of missing, the smaller the gold the worse it gets. It must start somewhere. There is a new gadget that tracks your aim during the shot process. I wonder if it would show up problems earlier? There seems to be a fine line between shooting quick and shooting too quick.
 

Sinbad

Member
I had an issue last year, where i would start to lower into the gold and then start to panic a little, then as i passed the gold trying to stop myself from jumping at the trigger i couldn't get it back, and would literally jerk my arm up and release as it got near the gold. It got so bad that i would start to shake as i came down to the gold, find myself pulling my head away and closing my eyes on release (as you can guess my scores went south to a point where i missed the boss a couple of times at 30m).

At that point, I took the target down and put a leaf on the boss, no issue at all. I found that the covid break helped a little, but i shot a number of times at home without putting anything up. Just before Christmas we went back and i tried a frostbite again, working on breathing and telling myself not to worry about the score etc. I had increased the tension on the thumb release so I had to squeeze and not jump at it (which seemed to become a norm with the panic), it went from a 314 with panic to 351 just not worrying about the gold. I have managed to keep my head still, keep my eyes open and enjoy shooting (apart from the new lockdown).

I have borrowed a tension release but don't want to try that at home as such, i want the distance in case i have issues in the use of it.
 

Sinbad

Member
Did you have a sense things were going bad quite quickly or was it over a few months?
For me it seemed to come on very quickly, i went from good scores and feeling like good shots to a right flap over just a few weeks. As soon as i had a round where i missed the boss, i knew i wasn't going to get it back, so stopped and started to do other things, like breathing, talking in my head through the squeeze of the trigger etc at leaves and chalk marks on a boss.
 

geoffretired

Supporter
Supporter
Hi Kid Curry. I can see how it is possible to have a twitch and have a steady aim. I started that way. The two are not inseparable.
I think the two are likely to happen as a pair; aggravating one another. A twitch will often cause the sight to move and a re set becomes necessary.
With no help or remedial suggestions; the two can start happening as a single event... difficult to tell which is starting things off.
But gold shyness is physiological, a fear of missing, the smaller the gold the worse it gets. It must start somewhere.
I think any fear of missing is likely to start a chain of events. One part of that chain is often a tendency to try to aim better. That is a change from the normal amount of effort given to the aiming. The mind has moved from wherever it used to be, to a focusing on the sight and a forgetting of other vital aspects. Drawing being one of the frequent sufferers.
 

KidCurry

Well-known member
For me it seemed to come on very quickly, i went from good scores and feeling like good shots to a right flap over just a few weeks. As soon as i had a round where i missed the boss, i knew i wasn't going to get it back, so stopped and started to do other things,...
Looks like you caught it really early. I wonder how many people just try and push through it hoping it will go away or just poor form, when in reality it is just being reinforced. I wonder if it's possible to produce an early warning signs list, or maybe AGB look at an article on spotting early warning signs of TP.
 

geoffretired

Supporter
Supporter
I think it should be possible to make a list of warning signs,
One of the things I see in a fair number of beginners is a tendency to shoot as soon as the string touches their face. That is a habit that can become difficult to get rid of. I know it may be seen as the way to shoot for some longbow archers; but with so little time to settle, most recurve archers will be throwing away scores or groups. If they do make a habit of shooting that fast, slowing down can be a real problems. As soon as the string is felt on the face the shot is gone, despite their best efforts. Soon, it can seem impossible to prevent and the harder they try to more they succeed in repeating it.
 
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