Nocks for string walking

KidCurry

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Well I've been shooting Beiter asymetric pin nocks against Fivics pin nocks for a few months as the Fivics are almost half the price. I have found the Fivics group tighter over a wider range of string walking distances than Beiter. It may be the string contact point but the Beiter do not respond to walking as well as the Fivics.
 

Timid Toad

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Interesting. I wonder if Beiter Hunters have the same effect, or if there is a difference in diameter allowing a bit more wiggle room at the extremes with the Fivics
 

Geophys2

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@KidCurry, I found exactly the same, I always used Beiter asymmetric pin nocks on my arrows when shooting full recurve, and was always happy with them. When I switched to barebow and string walking I was experimenting with different arrows as I no longer had to work to the clicker, both were sets of ACEs the old ones with the asymmetric nocks and the new slightly longer ones with Easton nocks. The new set grouped better, I thought due to the extra length, so I decided to change to them and replaced the nocks with my usual Beiter and the group opened up. Put the Easton symmetric ones back on and the group closed up again. So I put Easton pin nocks on to the old arrows and they grouped tighter as well. Now I don't group as tightly as you do, but it did make a noticeable difference. I'll give Fivics a try.
 

Michael Burrows

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Well I've been shooting Beiter asymetric pin nocks against Fivics pin nocks for a few months as the Fivics are almost half the price. I have found the Fivics group tighter over a wider range of string walking distances than Beiter. It may be the string contact point but the Beiter do not respond to walking as well as the Fivics.
This is really interesting. I was doing some bareshaft tuning and one of them kept diving low left, too much for it to be me. I swapped the nocks on another bareshaft and same result with the other. So I changed the Beiter nock for a new one and all was well. I looked at the two under a magnifying glass and couldn't see any difference. So when I saw your comment, having lost some faith in Beiter nocks somewhat, I put three arrows with Easton nocks (don't have any Fivics although I've now sent for some) against three with Beiter at 20, 30 and 50m (50m is my point on). At the two lower distances the Easton grouped better. At 50 it wasn't a lot different although leaning towards the Beiter. So I'm now keen for the Fivics to arrive and see what happens. I must admit that I thought that the Beiter's would be better at extreme angles with the async shape but it seems not. Should have done this test long ago so thanks for bringing it it up 😁
 

Stretch

Well-known member
Nocks take a regular hammering. Beiter nocks are hugely variable across the different designs - not all size 1 and size 2 have the same nock fit.

In terms of spotting visible damage I prefer the transparent ones. They are more brittle but also tend to break rather than deform.

The Heavy colours - especially on In/Out nocks often get deformed but not always in a way that you can see it. When using an alignment tool (like the old Bjorn) you can see deformation that the naked eye cannot. They also crack parallel to the shaft in the collar which can be hard to spot.

So there is always a strong possibility that fresh nocks of any brand might shoot better than a set that have been clattered together for a few months.

However, I still think pin nocks were designed to make sure your x10 cracks every time you break a nock. I hate those things and have handfuls of cracked arrows to justify my dislike. (Unfortunately they shoot well)

Grumpy Stretch
 

KidCurry

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Interesting. I wonder if Beiter Hunters have the same effect...
As my goal was a cheaper nock I will probably never know :)
For clarity, all nocks were new and on pins in ACCs. I shoot ACCs at 20yds and 30m. String walk 1-2". I'm now doing the same test on my ACEs (50m, 70m 90m) which have collars and pins. Currently at 50m with no string walking, 3 under, both arrows show similar groups but Fivics seem to fly better with a slightly lower nocking point. If I can get my groups to those of late last summer any difference will show up. However I wil be back to string walking at 70m so I'm guessing this is going to be a long term test :(
 
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Michael Burrows

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Well I've testing pin nocks, the Bieter async, the Easton and the Fivics. I tested them, 2 arrows each (Skylon Paragon, 100gr points, Dragon Vanes) at 20, 30 and 50 meters three times. I interchanged them so as not to favour one or get tired etc. and carried out the exercise twice (well I am retired) so in other words 6 ends at each distance. I then carried out a grouping test at 20m. I thought the Beiters would be best overall - I bought them as the async shape made sense to me for string walking. However they proved to be the worst in these tests. Best overall were the Fivics - all scores at each distance added together. Best at 20 Easton, at 30 Fivics and at 50 Fivics. I then tested for grouping at 20m only as I don't think my form is reliable for longer distances and consistency and the Fivics again were best followed by the Easton and then Bieter.
 

Stretch

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Not meaning to be cheeky because I don’t know much about BB but is that a legitimate test? Without re-tuning for each nock surely the overall outcome would favour the nock that tunes the best at the given bow setting? So my interpretation would be that your equipment is best tuned/compromise to Fivics rather than Fivics necessarily being the best for stringwalking.

I presume that all the arrows had been pre-shot and be deemed to be shooting the same prior to the change of nocks?

I don’t see how Easton could be best at 20m in the first part of the test but Fivics better in the second part. That would indicate (to me) that there is an issue with the statistical significance of the results?

Given the role the nock plays in the overall system its hard to see how an nock can be better at longer distance than it is at shorter distance unless one flies better... again indicating a tuning preference rather than a performance one. You expect group deterioration to be similar (if arrow flying well) just at long distance you can see the difference more clearly.

Apologies if I am thinking too Olympic style when interpreting the results.

Stretch
 

Michael Burrows

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Yes to are right to a certain extent and obviously to retune for each nock would be onerous to say the least. The nock does make a difference with BB if you are string walking as the angle of the string changes with the longer crawls. But unless I were to change nocks for each distance to some extent it's irrelevant as I want a nock that works best for all distances. Some BB archers have different arrows for different distances especially for a FITA. So they would have one set for 90 and 70 and another for 50 and 30. Some change buttons too if they haven't got a adjustable one. BB is a dark art!
 

Stretch

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Yes, I understand that, all I am suggesting is that if your nocking point was 1/2mm higher or lower or a touch tighter or slacker, or your arrow 2mm longer or shorter, or you button a few clicks firmer or softer... and your results could be totally different. Even on an Olympic rig I‘d usually expect to tune a slightly higher nocking point with a Beiter than an Easton pin (for example).

You are absolutely right to choose the Fivics if you have them working as you want them but that may or may not be transferable info.

With stringwalking on the Beiter I can see how if the string angle becomes too steep at more aggressive walks that the asymmetrical shape could be a hinderance not a help but that that also links to your poundage/crawl/bow length/anchor location/arrow speed etc. So thinking out loud (again) that might make it harder to find a good compromise setting with the Beiter for some.

I‘ll shut up now and go shoot some arrows (with a sight for safety sake)

Stretch
 

KidCurry

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I don’t see how Easton could be best at 20m in the first part of the test but Fivics better in the second part...
Given the role the nock plays in the overall system its hard to see how an nock can be better at longer distance than it is at shorter distance...
Apologies if I am thinking too Olympic style when interpreting the results.
Hi Stretch
I have a bow (W&W AXT + X Tour limbs) and ACEs for 90m-50m, another bow (Mybo Elite + WinEX limbs) and ACCs for 30m and 18m. Both have Beiter buttons for optimal setting. I usually set my 90m bow optimally at 70m although it is currently set for 50m. I bare shaft tuned for both Beiter and Fivics. I think the issue is, even with two bows set up and tuned optimally for each type of nock, when shooting three under, the bow is never going to shoot really well. The Beiter nock, which, I agree, needs a slightly higher nock point anyway, doesn't respond well to crawls over 15mm. The Fivics does seem to perform slightly better at these crawls, but noticeably better at crawls of 30mm and over.
There is significant downward force on the arrow nock at these crawls. I use solid colours as I found too many failures with transparent colours when shooting compound. I found the solids to be more pliable. I don't know if this has an effect during string walking but the Beiter is significantly longer than the Fivics. Does it flex more, I can't say.
nocks.jpg
Top - Beiter
Middle - Fivics
Bottom - MAC (a great value nock, but falls off the string when I reverse for some reason)

I doubt any of this remotely applies to Olympic recurve :)
 
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Stretch

Well-known member
Interesting... that’s a asymmetric Beiter isn’t it? Does a symmetric Beiter do the same thing? That would support the length supposition but it could be anything but most likely culprit is the angle of the nock bed no longer being aligned to the string but no idea why a flat nock bed would be better. I presume there are no signs of clearance issues with the slightly chunkier nock?

Nothing a few hundred thousand pounds research grant and a hi speed camera couldn‘t get to the bottom of... errr....

Fivics it is then (if I ever go for a stringwalk).

Stretch
 

Michael Burrows

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Interesting... that’s a asymmetric Beiter isn’t it? Does a symmetric Beiter do the same thing? That would support the length supposition but it could be anything but most likely culprit is the angle of the nock bed no longer being aligned to the string but no idea why a flat nock bed would be better. I presume there are no signs of clearance issues with the slightly chunkier nock?

Nothing a few hundred thousand pounds research grant and a hi speed camera couldn‘t get to the bottom of... errr....

Fivics it is then (if I ever go for a stringwalk).

Stretch
Best form of archery!!!
 
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