On springs and things...

bimble

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Having shot the hinge release for a week I chickened out of shooting the hinge at Panther and broke out the trigger realease. Mostly down to the fact that it takes me a good 45 minutes shooting the hinge release to get it going smoothly and partly because I tried the trigger and was able to shoot it properly without punching.

It was still sometimes a bit of a struggle, but it was good enough to smash a nock at 23m...



The shoot at Panther went considerably better than the month before at Pentref. The month before I hadn't been able to get into the gold, punched away and just generally grumped my way for the rest of the day. I will admit, it was very hard at Panther. For the first five targets I was averaging 7-8 draws per target... after that it was probably closer to 5 draws per target. But by the end of the first day I was tired, but nearly 40 points up on the previous months score and hadn't punched the release once. So a win.

Speaking to a couple of the guys on the practice field the next morning I happened to mention that it was quite a struggle to get the release to work and I was lent a release... and the trigger was so light that it went off as soon as I brushed the trigger!! And of the three that I tried that was the heaviest!! How people wrap their thumb around these triggers I don't know!

I shot the second day, trying to make stronger shots and while I still had quite a few come downs I did manage a handful of points more... alas there was also a punch on the first shot on a 20m bunny... I may have sworn loudly...

This evening I tried lightening the spring in the release aid, and after switching to then a slightly heavier spring found that the release was light enough that it wasn't too much of a struggle, but it was hard enough that I could get the thumb on the trigger. Whilst I was only shooting my field set-up I was able to shoot 105-110 doz @70m, and most importantly do it whilst aiming in the gold.
 


geoffretired

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I have spent more time on spring tension changes than is good for me!! heehee.
It is important, yes; but I feel there is a catch. In many ways it is like the clicker shooter who keeps moving the clicker; sometimes the shots won't go so they move it, then they go too soon on another day.
The stiffness of the trigger can seem perfect one day and wrong the next.
I've decided it's me!! Lack of control of that stage in the shot; or variable amounts of preparation at the wrapping thumb stage. Thinking that it should have gone by now is one of the things that lets me down. Patience is required, and keeping busy so the trigger, and time, doesn't become my focus.
 


UltraFox

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Hi,
as a former pistol shooter I can?t resist to ad something about the (target) trigger resistance... triggering is about smoothnes yes? that means raising the pressure on it by your finger nice and smoothly... too heavy means it will disturb the musle tension, too light and you won?t be able to feel it perfectly... one has to set his trigger so he will be able to get the perfect control over the proces (of adding the pressure)...
...long range target pistol shooting was about very precise little movement of the finger which also has to be very sensitive to get the smooth control over the minimal pressure - absolutely relaxed grip without any tension (maybe you know the "glove" style like freepistol grip)... on the other hand short range air pistol have a limitation to the minimal trigger pressure set at 1Kg (if I remember...) to get some challenge because that needed overal balanced control of the muscles tension, firmer grip and so the air pistol doesn?t have (nor need) the "glove style" grip...

If I was switching straight from firearms to a compoud I?d go for the wrist wrapped relase with pistol type trigger as that would give me completely relaxed hand and precise control over the trigger... but my index finger is now less sensitive because of the finger relased recurve...
 


geoffretired

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One of the differences between pistols and bows, is the way the bow is trying to pull the release aid from the drawing hand. The pistol has no such tendency.
It is possible with a bow, to grip the release aid in such a way, that the bow pulls the trigger towards the finger or thumb, so long as the hand is not gripping ever more tightly as the bow tension is building. In one way, it is like a finger shooting having their fingers pulled open by the bow string at release.
How does that fit in with your ideas? I am not disagreeing, just curious.
 


bimble

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I can see what you mean about fiddling there Geoff... thankfully, two springs down from where I was, was far too light (and I then dropped that spring somewhere) and so it's a choice of the spring now in the release, or the one that was in there before. Both of which are heavy enough to allow me to wrap my thumb around the trigger. And if I do start getting stronger with the BT I can always up the spring....

Hi Ultrafox, I've not had the chance to shoot pistols, though I did once go to an NRA open day at Bisley which was a lot of fun. By far and away my favourite was the 1000yd match rifle, helped by it being a lovely sunny day with no wind!! I did try some black-powder revolvers... I was rubbish!!
 


UltraFox

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Geoff, well that difference was the reason I would choose the wrist relase which is supposed to allow a relaxed forehand and surgeons precision over the index finger... if I?ll be holding the relase with fingers I suppose that I?ll need a stiffer (thumb) trigger to balance the tension that is already here so I?ll be able to hold it perfectly at the place without any added imbalanced tension... if the bow "is hepling" to pull the trigger I?ll probably balace it for that case the same way... but I should try the compound sometimes :) ... the ballance in the string grip with finger relase is also very important...
as. ex. from the air pistol I was once solving an issue that the shots were placed up the centre - the problem was that the index finger produced more pressure than the rest, I had to balance it adding more pressure to the grip by ring and pinky figers to hold em perfectly centered - you?re balancing the dynamic process to keep the aiming at the point while adding the pressure (there I?m talking about milimetres, but the ten was only 10mm and the projectile 4,5mm in diameter after all)

Bimble: sniper rifles are fun, but the shooting ranges long enough to produce some challenge for that kind of a gun are quite rare ;) ... so I liked the long range pistol, 50m for 5cm ten to hit by a pistol is more then enough ;) ... black powders are the real fun - I like the smoke screen :)
 


fanio

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UltraFox;bt16185 said:
Hi,
...raising the pressure on it by your finger nice and smoothly... one has to set his trigger so he will be able to get the perfect control over the proces (of adding the pressure)...
and
Geoff, well that difference was the reason I would choose the wrist relase which is supposed to allow a relaxed forehand and surgeons precision over the index finger...
As Geoff says, the bow tries to pull the trigger from your hand. Correct technique with a release aid is NOT to "squeeze" the trigger as in pistol/rifle shooting, but to LET the tendency of the bow to pull the release aid work with you so there is NO conscious attempt to make the trigger go.

When you get it right, it almost feels as if the release has triggered itself (and there is almost no difference between shooting with a thumb trigger and a hinge release, and the moment of release is a surprise).

If I was switching straight from firearms to a compoud I?d go for the wrist wrapped relase with pistol type trigger as that would give me completely relaxed hand and precise control over the trigger...
again, it sounds counter-intuitive, but precise control over the trigger is the last thing you want when shooting a compound bow. You definitely do not want surgeon's precision on the finger. This almost inevitably leads to anticipation and "flinching". Me, Geoffretired and thousands of others have also learned this the hard way. My own flinching started when I was using a wrist release with a "spring trigger" which is meant to encourage a slow smooth squeezing of the trigger. This carried over to thumb release. It became so bad that I would unexpectedly miss the whole target at 20y.

It is slightly more difficult, but still possible, to shoot without conscious control with a wrist (i.e. index finger) release, than with a thumb release. The extra sensitivity in the index finger makes it more difficult to execute the shot with "pure back tension", and so you are more likely to "punch" the trigger (i.e. trigger consciously); You do not squeeze the trigger, you wrap the finger solidly, relax the hand, and keep pulling with the back.


"Surprise release" execution with a release aid is actually quite similar to proper execution with a recurve with clicker - you keep pulling until the shot goes off / the clicker drops. In both cases, you maintain the backwards pressure, but with release aid this gives follow through. With recurve, when the clicker drops you relax your fingers. If you do it right you don't have to "decide" to release when you hear the clicker - it is automatic, so the clicker in effect turns the recurve release into a surprise release as well - and this of course is the real advantage to clickers (rather than a draw length check, which is really only "important" for relative novices.)
 


UltraFox

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Fanio: by precise control of the trigger I mean of course the perfectly smooth pressure control - the point here when shooting a gun is to focus on the smoothness - like working with the back tension... when I?m thinking about the shot during the training, to me it is more like: yeah, now the sight picture looks nice it would be nice if the shot go in that moment but I?m not there yet, have to keep pulling(squeezing) nice and smooth... not even thinking about altering the triggering proces that is ultimate-ban ... keep calm better scoring with not so perfectly aimed than bad relased...

with the wrist relase I was thinking about that as a separate elements merged together - the back tension and the trigger pressure, because you have informations sent from two separate parts of the body... nerves sensitive for a pressure to control the raising pressure at the trigger and the back tension that sould be synchronized... ideally unconsciously... talking about the human shooting machine... thinking about me as a soul in the body like the driver in a semiautomatic car ;)

Still can?t left the thoughts about the firearms behind as it is helping me to shoot a finger relased recurve... but I feel I really should have tried to shoot the compound before I join the discussion about it so I get a better idea about the subject :loser:
 


geoffretired

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Connected(I think) to this discussion, is something I have been running through in my head for some time now.
As the release of the arrow approaches, we are trying to maintain out posture(including the bow in that) and continue to draw the bow, as opposed to letting it pull us back the other way.
At the point of the release, I feel as if my efforts have "snapped the string".( If you snap a piece of string there is a feeling very similar to releasing an arrow.)
The string snaps as there is a build up of tension on it. In that sense, when I am shooting I feel I am getting stronger as the shot sequence progresses towards that release/snap. That feeling of getting stronger, makes me think that trying to fit in something very delicate, like a tiny press on a light trigger, would be very distracting.
I think of a weight lifter with a huge weight held above his head and trying to wiggle his toes.
I can "see" that pulling the bow against the stops can mask the triggering action so it seems the drawing did the work, not a delicate press. That delicate, or not so delicate, press must have been learnt deliberately at some stage, and allowed to run on automatic when the time was right.
 


UltraFox

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geoffretired;bt16191 said:
I think of a weight lifter with a huge weight held above his head and trying to wiggle his toes.
I can "see" that pulling the bow against the stops can mask the triggering action so it seems the drawing did the work, not a delicate press. That delicate, or not so delicate, press must have been learnt deliberately at some stage, and allowed to run on automatic when the time was right.
so just my little ad... well that?s what have been confusing me - at the end of the draw compounders even with a massive letoff still works with the force much bigger that what is needed to pull the trigger so I couldn?t imagine the situation "the bow is helping to pull the trigger" and I?m looking at the triggering as a work of the isolated muscle or muscle group
 


fanio

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@ UltraFox: for your 2 posts above: no - as I have said, there should be no "isolated muscle group" (i.e. finger/hand) involved. You put and then keep the relevant finger (thumb/first finger) in place, and keep pulling the bow. That's it. ZERO conscious movement of thumb or first finger to trigger, and NO finger squeeze at all.
 


fanio

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UltraFox;bt16190 said:
Still can?t left the thoughts about the firearms behind as it is helping me to shoot a finger relased recurve... but I feel I really should have tried to shoot the compound before I join the discussion about it so I get a better idea about the subject :loser:
I think you often bring some really interesting thinking / philosophy to the discussions/blogs, so you should not refrain from giving your thoughts.
 


UltraFox

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fanio: thanks... one of my frieds is saving up for some basic hobby compound setup so I?ll be back ;) ...it?s also the reason I?m reading about the compounds and it?s making me curious (also if my thoughts are right because he is supposing I?ll be a help to him as an archer) ... also the standards for a coach licence here contains knowledge about the compounds
 


geoffretired

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UltraFox, my thinking is just that.... mine. I do not say what the top archers do, just what I try to do.
There are other ways, and I have tried those ,too.
I just feel that the draw and the strong feelings will overpower any delicate movements. By blending the delicate into the strong, it just seems.... right somehow.
 


UltraFox

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geoffretired;bt16196 said:
UltraFox, my thinking is just that.... mine. I do not say what the top archers do, just what I try to do.
There are other ways, and I have tried those ,too.
I just feel that the draw and the strong feelings will overpower any delicate movements. By blending the delicate into the strong, it just seems.... right somehow.
Like learning the math, I wasn?t able to solve arithmetical problem myself just after listening the explanation and watching our teacher doing it, I had to think hard myself using the notes as a guiding principles not a manual if I ever wanted to apply the knowledge practically and true... and only after that the figures start making sense(even the university rubish) and knowing the correct result is hepling to be sure one get it right... thank you all for the guiding ;)
 


geoffretired

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Heehee, I love that reference to maths. It is so true; we have to go through someone else's thinking in order to really understand what they mean. Maths almost forces us to follow; ordinary explanations often allow us to miss what had to be understood, as there are rarely any check marks along the way.
Love that post!!
 


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