One member on vote AGM 2019?

ben tarrow

Active member
I got my AGM pack this morning (why can't they put it on line in a pdf so ALL my members can read it?)

Appendix B - Changes to system of voting
Voting Members
7. Voting members shall be those members entitled to vote, namely
(a) Adult members
(b) one person nominated by each associated organisation to represent it
(c) Honorary members

Does this mean that adult club members (members of an associated organisation) will still only get one vote for the club?
As an adult CLUB member (not AGB direct) will I be entitled to a vote in my own right?
 


mk1

It's an X
Supporter
Normally AGM papers are available on the website - for the 2019 stuff it's just not up yet -an appropriate person at Archery GB has been reminded and I'll let you know when its up.

https://www.archerygb.org/about-us-structure-safeguard/about-us/membership-services/agm-2019/

All adult members will get a vote whether affiliated through a club or a direct member.

Associated organisations are not Archery GB clubs but a handful of organisations like the English Archery Federation who pay a small fee to be associated with Archery GB. (there isnt a list in the Articles as they join every year so can change from year to year)
 


ben tarrow

Active member
Thank you so much for this reply and explanation.
Shame it wasnt explained so clearly in the papers.

It'd be really good to have them ((the agm papers)) on the website as some of my club members are actually interested, but its hard work getting my single copy round everyone for them to have a proper read

Ben
 


Harold's EyeIt wasn't me

New member
Fonz Awardee
Ben

We make the papers available at every session from receipt up to our own AGM where we work out numbers for and against

We will also point them to the online availability of the papers if they want to read at home.

I feel it is really important for the organisation to accept a new truly democratic mechanism of 'one vote per member' and move away from the current system of the Secretary being able to vote on behalf of their members.
 


ben tarrow

Active member
Ben

We make the papers available at every session from receipt up to our own AGM where we work out numbers for and against

We will also point them to the online availability of the papers if they want to read at home.

I feel it is really important for the organisation to accept a new truly democratic mechanism of 'one vote per member' and move away from the current system of the Secretary being able to vote on behalf of their members.
I agree 100% about the one vote per member. Look out 21st century, here we come! I am excited by the electronic online voting system. I wasnt able to find the documents online because aparently they are not available yet. I believe it is important for every member to have sight of those documents to make an informed vote.

For next year, as part of the "coming into the 21st century" program, can we have a membership system like any members organisation (AA, RAC, National Trust, etc) where the potential member joins online themselves, rather than it going through a club secretary?
Membership could be 1 year from the date of joining, to get rid of the farcical pro rata system that penalizes anyone joining in August and to get rid of the need to process tens of thousands of memberships in a couple of weeks of September. This system could collect AGB, region and county fees as a single sum from the new member based on the club they identify and then distribute the cash to county and region, save the club secretary having to get 3 cheques signed and pay 3 lots of postage every time a new member wants to join.
 


Harold's EyeIt wasn't me

New member
Fonz Awardee
Ben. This opens up a much bigger debate and I agree totally with you. Unfortunately the organisation has a historical infrastructure which prevents any such logical approach. The Grand National Archery Society (branded Archery GB for sensible reasons) is a federal 'being' with the various parts being entirely self governing in regard to local organisation and financing. The Regions and Counties all set differing subscriptions and therefore the centralisation of payments is potentially difficult hence the current system of separate payments.

I will put it out here for debate thanks to your opening if you don't mind. What do people think about Ben's point? Does it not seem that the time is here, whilst we are talking about a proper democracy, for us all to be part of one organisation instead of three (or even four in some areas). Why not move to a single organisation that has a single fee structure and one payment point?

I know there is much to this debate but what does everyone think?
 


ben tarrow

Active member
The Grand National Archery Society (branded Archery GB for sensible reasons) is a federal 'being' with the various parts being entirely self governing in regard to local organisation and financing. The Regions and Counties all set differing subscriptions and therefore the centralisation of payments is potentially difficult hence the current system of separate payments.
I welcome the debate.
I doubt that having a method by which a new member picks a club is beyond the capabilities of a website.
If a member can pick a club, surely that club can have a county, and hence the county have a region.
If picking a club indicates a region and county, is it beyond the capabilities of a website to calculate a final fee based on counties and regions with differing fees?
Then once a month, AGB could calculate the fees it owes each county and region and do a baccs transfer.
Surely AGB can't be the only federated organisation that sport:80 services?

Simple emails to the selected club "you have a new member", "member joe soap's membership is about to expire" "member joe soap's membership has expired, dont let him shoot", "member joe soap has renewed his membership, he can shoot again now"

Progress marches on relentlessly
 


Corax67

Active member
I think Ben has made an excellent point - for myself and many members of our club an AGB electronic payment system with a single debit for our affiliation fees would be gratefully received rather than having to mess about with cheques for this and that to our club and for the club to the various entities.



Karl
 


ben tarrow

Active member
I think Ben has made an excellent point - for myself and many members of our club an AGB electronic payment system with a single debit for our affiliation fees would be gratefully received rather than having to mess about with cheques for this and that to our club and for the club to the various entities.



Karl
You can actually pay your AGB by Stripe. Unfortunately, our bank account is one that requires 2 signatures, so we cant use systems like stripe.
On top of that, our county and region can't manage electronic payments.
As a club we take paypal, direct debits via gocardless and we're looking into these small portable and inexpensive card readers so people can pay by credi/debit card in person
 


Spike95609

New member
I see where you're coming by paying one fee to GNAS to cover their own fees and those of the county, region and club. It could be done and would be more convenient for the individual. Speaking as a club secretary though, it would make things very difficult.

If a club has a small membership and can only meet a couple of times a week, and so some officer or other will always be present, it's probably easy enough to keep track of who has paid their affiliation fees and who has not. Do we need to know? Yes, because anyone who has not paid will not be insured, and if they forget that they have not paid (believe me a number of members need an awful lot of reminding), they will be invalidating everyone elses insurance if they turn up to shoot. My club has over 100 members, and as we are lucky enough to own our grounds they can come and shoot any time they please, and probably with no officers present. If our members were renewing at all times of the year, it would need to be constantly monitored and would be almost impossible to effectively administer.

These ideas were mooted a few years ago, about 2013-ish, as part of GNAS's modernisation proposals. Needless to say there was a lot of feedback along these lines and the idea was thankfully dropped. At the time my club discussed what we would do if this situation was forced upon us, and we felt that we would have to seriously consider whether we could remain members of GNAS. As to our club fees being paid to GNAS and then distributed back to us at their convenience, we were adamant that if that happened then we would have no choice but to leave, become an independent club and get our own insurance. Clubs are privately run bodies, which are affiliated to GNAS, the local county and region. They are not owned by them, and placing our income in the hands of a third party would be surrendering a degree of control and independence which would be impossible to contemplate.

I hope this doesn't sound like I'm resistant to change. I'm a big fan of the online renewal system, speaking as someone who struggled with the old carbon copy sheets 10 years ago, as it's made the whole process considerably easier. I also like the idea of the one member one vote system, which stops people like me living in my banana republic and voting 100 people in favour of something and nobody against. Nevertheless it remains true that just because you are moving forward it doesn't follow that you're going in the right direction.

Mark
 


ben tarrow

Active member
Do we need to know? Yes, because anyone who has not paid will not be insured, and if they forget that they have not paid (believe me a number of members need an awful lot of reminding), they will be invalidating everyone elses insurance if they turn up to shoot.
Mark
Hi Mark
Firstly, I think AGB and club fees should be separate. If AGB had to track and pay all the different clubs in the country, thats a much bigger ask than for the handful of counties and regions. AGB and club are different things and you can join as many clubs as you like.

This business of "if one person is not insured, we're all not insured" is a myth that AGB allows to perpetuate because it suits their purposes.
If one person is not insured, that one person is not insured. The other members are still insured as is the club.

As for keeping track of those whose AGB is about to expire, AGB could easily email club officials as someone's membership is about to expire, when it has expired and when/if they renew. Since these miscreants would be in the minority, that wouldnt be too onerous task to stay on top of. After all, in early October, you still have this task to do as its difficult to track who actually has paid their AGB subs purely from memory.

Our club treasurer is just fed up with having a couple of new members every week, which means she has a weekly chore of banking cheques from the new members, then raising 3 cheques to AGB, county and region, 3 envelopes, 3 stamps.
Put responsibility for membership in the hands of the member, maybe with direct debit options, which is how we collect our club subs on a monthly basis.
Perhaps opt out options for clubs that dont feel they can give up that control?
 


Spike95609

New member
Hmm, it sounds like your process of affiliating is more complicated than ours. Members pay their affiliation fees to us with a single cheque or bank transfer, so it's easy enough for them. The treasurer then just makes a single bank transfer to GNAS and another to the county, to whom I email an Excel list of our members. They then take their cut and pass it on to the region. It sounds like the problem your club has is, if I'd understood it correctly, is accepting new members every week. All of our membership applications get considered at a general meeting and we only hold these every quarter, so it's not something we're having to do all the time. Anyway providing the counties and regions don't have any issue with it, then yes a single all-encompassing affiliation fee paid to GNAS and then distributed back to counties and regions would probably make life a lot easier for everyone.

I still say though that members cannot affiliate at all times of the year. Yes there is a period of uncertainty in October, but it doesn't last long and it all gets sorted in one hit. We put a list of all members who have paid their club fees on the noticeboard around this time, and use a highlight pen to indicate those who have paid their affiliation fees, so it's clear to see who is okay to shoot. Unless we filled in a new sheet every single week then that system couldn't work if everyone was affiliating at different times, and I can't think of one to replace it with which wouldn't put me in a similar position to the one your treasurer is in now. Having to constantly check up on affiliation fees and send out reminders, I can see myself getting bored of that extremely quickly. Club officers are volunteers, it's not a job.

Yes there are a lot of myths about insurance. GNAS have since got a new policy, but I am probably one of very few people to have read the old one from cover to cover, so when Archery UK did a feature on it a year or two ago with a long list of things you must do in order to be insured, I knew it was utter nonsense because it was in fact a generic document for sports clubs, and nowhere in there did it say GNAS, AGB, archery, rules of shooting, or even anything that could be interpreted as an obligation to follow the rules of your governing body. It did however make lots of references to acts to terrorism and nuclear war. That said I'm not a solicitor and I don't understand this stuff. If something goes wrong at a club there is the potential that officers could be held to account because they are the ones who are theoretically running the show and responsible for what goes on there. I've heard ordinary members say "oh it'll never happen", which is an easy thing to say if it's not your head that's on the chopping block.
 


ben tarrow

Active member
Having to constantly check up on affiliation fees and send out reminders, I can see myself getting bored of that extremely quickly. Club officers are volunteers, it's not a job.
.
My idea was that the AGB automated system would take care of that.
I'm assuming that the electronicalization of the renewals means that AGB no longer have to employ an army of people to manage the membership flood in September, so a saving there.

I guess if my own club paid for a proper business account rather than relying on the ancient free "clubs and societies" account that gives us free banking but has none of the modern electronic banking features, we wouldnt have to write so many cheques.
We no longer send county and region lists of members since they have access to that info through the agb member portal.

Small steps is what it takes to create a revolution
 


wychcraft

Member
OK, colour me confused, but the way I read the amendment was as follows:

Each Voting Member (e.g. adult member of AGB) gets one vote.
Each Voting Member may assign a proxy.

On shows of hands, every Voting Member present at the Meeting gets one single vote, whether they hold proxies or not (this doesn't change)
On polls, every Voting Member present at the Meeting gets one single vote, whether they hold proxies or not.

This last is a massive change.

Previously, Club Electors got to vote (on their conscience) in the number and proportion of their club members. This means that provided your Secretary polls the club and votes accordingly, effectively you have one member one vote.

Under the new rule, it seems to me that you only get OMOV if you turn up to the meeting. This would seem to be, contrary to the proposed OMOV, a massive disenfranchisement of members of clubs where the Secretary votes honestly in accordance with the wishes of their members? It also requires anyone wishing to exercise their vote to travel to wherever the Meeting is being held.

Section 25 looks to me to say that you can cast your vote by proxy, but according to section 26 your proxy must be a Voting Member. Seems to contradict itself, as the Voting Member you assign as a proxy gets one vote. They can't have their vote and any proxies they've been given.

Confused, and absolutely happy to be set right...
 


mk1

It's an X
Supporter
what the proposed new wording says is :-

24. Every Voting Member, or every duly appointed proxy, on a show of hands shall have one vote. Where an individual attending the relevant meeting is a Voting Member and also holds one or more proxies) such individual shall be entitled only to one vote on a show of hands.
25. On a poll, votes may be given either personally, or by proxy. On a poll, every Voting Member shall be entitled to one vote.
26. A proxy must be a person who is a Voting Member.


so members in the room vote on a show of hands - if a poll is called then every member who wishes to vote either does so by waving their hand in the room (if present) or by having placed a vote (before the meeting) directly to AGB or via a proxy who is present at the meeting to fill in the slip that will be counted.
 


wychcraft

Member
Okaaay... Presumably I'm reading it wrong, but it still says

"votes may be given ... by proxy"
"A proxy must be a person who is a Voting Member"
"Every Voting Member shall be entitled to one vote"

I realise what the intention is, but this is this wording sufficient to achieve it?
 


mk1

It's an X
Supporter
Okaaay... Presumably I'm reading it wrong, but it still says

"votes may be given ... by proxy"
"A proxy must be a person who is a Voting Member"
"Every Voting Member shall be entitled to one vote"

I realise what the intention is, but this is this wording sufficient to achieve it?
OK we're out a walk and we both have a rucksack. I hand mine to you to hold while I put on a jacket. How many rucksacks do we each have?
 


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