Pressure button springs

Bluemalu

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Howdy All,

My W&W WK500 comes with 5 springs ranging from 31gf to 129gf. Having now got some unfletched arrows (ACC 3X-04) I have had a try at tuning (should I add tape to add the extra mass of my 3" Bohning ICE fletching).

My initial groupings showed the fletched arrows down and to the left(20 Yards), so moved my nocking point up, next end the fletched arrows were horizontal and left indicating a weak arrow, so fully wound in my spring tension to hopefully see a big change. Next end was similar, no major change. Kept increasing tension till they grouped together nicely (had to change the springs to the 3rd spring).

When I came to adjust the sight to bring the gold back to centre it had to me moved a large amount to the left (I'm shooting right handed). Is this normal? Should I move my pressure button further out to counteract the sight movement, move up to ACC 3-04 arrows as I'm hoping to increase poundage to #32 limbs for the Summer as I've been shooting for nearly a couple of years regularly now.

My limbs are Uukha VX+ #28 medium (68" total), wound in to a measure #30 on the fingers., Brace 218mm and Tiller +4mm. Arrow length 28 1/2" from nock to end of shaft + 3/4" ACC 100grn point.
 
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Timid Toad

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Firstly, if you are right handed and your bs is left of the fletched group your shafts are stiff. Secondly, there's not much point bs tuning at less than 30 yards other than for nocking point. You'll get spurious results.
 

Bluemalu

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Typo on my part, should have said left. Corrected.

I'll put tuning on hold till I can shoot outside next Saturday as my back garden target is only 10 yards.
 

olis

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My understanding is that the spring pressure is a small adjustment.
For me the initial tuning procedure would be something like:
1) Set centre shot to best guess.
2) Set nocking point to best guess.
3) Set sight to left of string.
4) Set pressure spring to stiffer end of range.
5) Group bareshaft and fletched at any convenient distance (and in January that might be 20 yards)
6) Change the draw weight until the bare and fletched group together (left/right)
7) Change the nocking point until the bare and fletched group together (up/down)
8) Now adjust the spring pressure to move the group into the gold

Then:
a) If the draw weight is now something you are not happy with then change your arrows (length/point weight/spine) until you have the draw you want
b) Do a walk back tune to check centre shot
c) Small spring pressure adjustment either way just to see if things improve

My biggest tuning mistake is to change the wrong thing a lot in the hope that that will solve the problem.
It never does.
Also be wary of moving the sight (left/right) a lot: it means something else is wrong and you will not be shooting in the plane of the bow.
 

Bluemalu

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Thanks for the check list, it's what I had in mind to try.

I suppose my real question is why 5 springs and which should I start on and as you say when / why change to a different spring is it another issue.
 

olis

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Sorry, a misunderstanding.
Using the limb bolts to tweak the bow/draw weight.
I do think that draw weight is the key to matching arrows.
Because a recurve bow is adjustable (and reversible!)
Real life example:
I switched arrows this indoor season to keep my outdoor limbs.
I expected them to be weak (the choice was 500 or 600 and my outdoor are 550) so I had them with light points.
They were stiff so I got 120s and still screwed the limbs in to match. All good except that I got over-tired after a few dozen arrows.
Last week I got some insert weights to get me to 165 and wound out the limbs accordingly.
The only other adjustment was half a turn on the spring to hit gold which I then did, not a PB but happy enough.
Two points:
People get obsessed with spine but centre shot is also important.
I was so much more comfortable in my shot cycle by dropping 2 pounds or so and being properly in control.
Part of me wonders if I should bear the pain of lighter limbs for next season (money, and performance at long distance would both be a potential problem).
 

jerryRTD

Active member
Thanks for the check list, it's what I had in mind to try.

I suppose my real question is why 5 springs and which should I start on and as you say when / why change to a different spring is it another issue.
Remember that button could end up fitted to a 60lb peak draw weight finger loose compound. you'll need the stiff spring for that
 

Timid Toad

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Sorry, a misunderstanding.
Using the limb bolts to tweak the bow/draw weight.
I do think that draw weight is the key to matching arrows.
Because a recurve bow is adjustable (and reversible!)
Again, not all bows have the option to adjust the poundage of the limbs in order to tune arrows.
 

Timid Toad

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*sigh* I am trying to explain why there are 5 spring options included with the button: whatever your setup, tuning choice or bowstyle, if one of that lot won't work you have bought the wrong spine of arrows.
 

olis

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I think there is a common misunderstanding of what the button is for.
It is not a bow tuner in the spine matching sense; it is a way of making the shot more forgiving i.e. there is a sweet spot between spongy and rock which helps to reduce the effect of a poor release. Changing the brace height does something similar.
People like to use the button to change things because it is easy to do. But easy is not always for the best.
 

KidCurry

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Button tension can also be used to move the arrow impact point left and right for barebow string walkers to limited amount.
 

geoffretired

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I think Olis is right about some archers not understanding what the button is really for. It can adjust centre shot a lot easier than carving away the riser or packing it out. Changing brace height can affect arrow matching if there is a slight mismatch to correct.
James Park's work on arrow flight explains about the button as regards spring tension. He says something along the lines that a rigid/over stiff button can give a type of " bouncing"off the button... not good news. He also says that in all his work, he found no evidence that adjusting stiffness can reduce the effects of a poor release.
 

AndyW

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Just my opinion as I've got no experience with recurves but I think button tension gets overthought ( a lot ). I shoot compound off fingers and as long as the tension is sensible I've not known it make much difference, maybe it shows up more at low poundage, longer distance. I shot buttons for a couple of years and just picked the middle tension spring or whichever one happened to be in it and tightened until it "felt right" - never had a minutes trouble. I've now done away with it entirely and rely on the steel blade on a Free flyte micro.
They're useful for quick centreshot adjustment but no more than an adjustable rest.
Have any of you recurve guys tried a plain old steel blade with any success?
 

geoffretired

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AndyW it would be interesting to know if spring tension is as sensitive as some think. Too hard, will cause the bounce James Park mentions. Too soft and the button tip can move for the slightest reason and the arrows launch in different directions shot to shot.
Anywhere between those two will make some difference to launch direction, but nothing that couldn't be corrected back by button centreshot.
A plain old blade might replace the button tip. And the same rest could stay in its usual position. I guess the question then would be..... have I got the right stiffness of blade? Unless, of course you believed the stiffness is not that important. I think James Park concluded there wasn't much point in adjusting spring tension, so long as it wasn't rigid or too soft.
 

KidCurry

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AndyW it would be interesting to know if spring tension is as sensitive as some think. Too hard, will cause the bounce James Park mentions. Too soft and the button tip can move for the slightest reason and the arrows launch in different directions shot to shot.
I use a medium spring set on the slightly stiff side. At 20yds a quarter turn stiffer will move arrows from the 10 to the 7/8 left on a WA18 face. But for arrow clearance I can wind the spring 90% in or out and not affect how the arrow clears the bow.
 
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geoffretired

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Hi KidCurry,
That is interesting.
I am trying to understand what it indicates regarding the way the arrow performs.If I use my own words, perhaps you can correct any ideas I have, that are not what you were saying.
It would seem that a slight change in stiffness makes quite a change to the landing place on the target. From that I am guessing that the plunger doesn't compress so far, so the arrows are being launched at a different angle to the plane of the bow. It's like moving the front end of the arrow to the left so they fly further to the left.
The part about arrow clearance being unchanged; seems to me to indicate that the forces acting on the arrow that cause it to flex, are not changing much, so clearance stays the same. Or put another way, stiffening the button won't resolve contact issues; but it could impact on where the sight is positioned ( left/right)if that was a problem.
 

KidCurry

Well-known member
Hi KidCurry,
That is interesting.
I am trying to understand what it indicates regarding the way the arrow performs.If I use my own words, perhaps you can correct any ideas I have, that are not what you were saying.
It would seem that a slight change in stiffness makes quite a change to the landing place on the target. From that I am guessing that the plunger doesn't compress so far, so the arrows are being launched at a different angle to the plane of the bow. It's like moving the front end of the arrow to the left so they fly further to the left.
The arrow is launched in a slightly different angle to that which is pointing, I would agree. But it's not like moving the arrow to point further left. This is because my arrow always points at the target face as I am always point on gold. I guess you could say that the arrow will always land just left of the arrow aiming point no matter how far you move the arrow left. Increasing the spring tension will move the arrow impact point left in relation to the arrow aiming point.

The part about arrow clearance being unchanged; seems to me to indicate that the forces acting on the arrow that cause it to flex, are not changing much, so clearance stays the same. Or put another way, stiffening the button won't resolve contact issues; but it could impact on where the sight is positioned ( left/right)if that was a problem.
The button only contacts the arrow for the first three inches or so, so I doubt the button has much chance to affect clearance.
 

olis

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... He also says that in all his work, he found no evidence that adjusting stiffness can reduce the effects of a poor release.
Oh, that's a shame. I could really do with the help sometimes.
It does seem intuitive that the arrow pushing against a spring would behave in a more forgiving way than an arrow pushing against something with no give in it.
 
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