jerryRTD
Well-known member
yesBut can anyone get them to line up with a sprung button or a rigid one?
yesBut can anyone get them to line up with a sprung button or a rigid one?
Thanks, some interesting videos but they aren't any higher res or framerate than some posted earlier in the thread, so it's hard to see detail of the exact moment the arrow comes off the button, and whether the plunger has ceased its travel or not. I had in mind a closer shot of the button with higher res and at least 20k fps. Something like The Slow Mo Guys use. I appreciate that's a serious camera that not even archery manufacturers would have lying around. That said, an extreme close up of that area with a 6k fps cam might do tha job.If you want to undersrand what is going on then you need to look at the Werner Beiter web site and look at 'the way to the center' video clips 'The bow window' is the one that will be the one that shows the most. they are shot at around 6000 frames per second I think you will be surprised at how fast things happen.
Jerry. if "yes" is the correct answer how do they know? And who is it that can reach that situation?yesgeoffretired said:
But can anyone get them to line up with a sprung button or a rigid one?
Well I guess it would show that some damping of the button motion was happening and so the button wasn't doing (as) much to "bounce" the arrow away from the riser. My speculation, and the idea that prompted this thread, is that there is little or no damping and the net effect of the button being able to compress and rebound is no different than having a rigid button (set to the right centre shot for the tuned bow). With no damping, if the button was absorbing differences in arrow pressure caused by variations in release, then it's only going to "give them back" a millisecond or two later. In other words the arrow would rebound just the same. A lot of people are stating this isn't the case but I've not seen either evidence or a description of a physical principle that would support the contrary position. I don't have an axe to grind here, I'm happy to be proved wrong. If the answer is actually "nobody really knows" then that's fine too. I just want to know how things really work.This is an interesting topic.
I have to ask, what the differences would be if the button was fully extended or not at the point of separation from the arrow.
Would it be the same for all arrows on all bows? Or could it be that one situation is good and the other is bad?
I doubt you will find an academic proof. But you could spend the next year with a matchstick instead of a spring and see what it does to your scores. My view is it does not dampen. It absorbs some of the energy from the arrow and returns very slightly later keeping the arrow on its intended path. Without the spring the energy in the arrow flex would bounce the arrow off its path. It effectively reduces the amount of paradox needed to keep the arrow on its path to the target.I don't have an axe to grind here, I'm happy to be proved wrong. If the answer is actually "nobody really knows" then that's fine too. I just want to know how things really work.
Well that wouldn't really tell either of us much as I've done a total of one scored target tournament in my archery career. I'm not counting our club Christmas fun shoots as that's with beginner bows and arrowsI doubt you will find an academic proof. But you could spend the next year with a matchstick instead of a spring and see what it does to your scores. My view is it does not dampen. It absorbs some of the energy from the arrow and returns very slightly later keeping the arrow on its intended path. Without the spring the energy in the arrow flex would bounce the arrow off its path. It effectively reduces the amount of paradox needed to keep the arrow on its path to the target.
Geoff, I mean simply that if it was damped, the button wouldn't spring back as quickly. Your car's "shock absorbers", or dampers, are oil or gas filled pistons which mean when the suspension springs (the real "shock absorbers") are compressed, the wheels don't bounce back into position quite as quickly. This stops the car being bounced all over the road when it hits bumps.I am a bit unclear on what we are talking about when you say "Damping". Does that mean the bend in the shaft is reduced by the button? Are you saying the solid and sprung buttons will have the same effect on the bending in the shaft?
Yes indeed. It seems to me that the button and the shaft act together to produce a flight path. Change the button in any way and the flight path could change as a result. The shaft presses on the button; and the button presses on the shaft. they both affect each other to some extent.It's unlikely to be the major force, I accept that, but any force would contribute to moving that arrow further out than if there were none.
OOPs pressed send twiceYes indeed. It seems to me that the button and the shaft act together to produce a flight path. Change the button in any way and the flight path could change as a result. The shaft presses on the button; and the button presses on the shaft. they both affect each other to some extent.
I wrote out my observations with some comments regarding what I saw. I think the arrow is in charge; and after all , it is what the arrow does that concerns us when setting up the button. What the button does is of interest; so a damped button would probably change the flight path compared to an undamped one. I would guess that whatever changes resulted from changing to a damped one, could be reversed by changing its settings. The button is simply restricting the left/right movements of the shaft while the two are in contact with each other.
Is the contact between them seen as helpful.... or is it interference??
I would say more helpful than interference. It could be seen as interference if the shaft was bounced off the button, or if the shaft bounced against the button at speed when it has already flexed away of its own accord... a second contact in other words. The undamped button does not seem to bounce the shaft away; it seems the button reaches its outer limit with the shaft still in contact and the shaft continues to slide over the tip until its flex causes a separation; like a plane taking off.