Seeing arrows fly

Cereleste

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How well can you personally see an arrow fly?
So much of bow tuning, at least historically, is based on watching if the arrow planes to one side, fishtails, porpoises, or minnows. All of these require being able to watch the arrow fly.

Here is my level of "ability" for this task
- at outdoor competitions I enjoy watching the large diameter wooden longbow arrows arc at the longer distances, and I can definitely see that they are moving (at ~30m/s after drag). I can't see any of the "out of tune" flight patterns above, but I would also expect that most arrows brougth to competitions are generally tuned.
- For other bowstyles or at shorter distances (below 40m or so), I can just about see one glimpse sometimes when the arrow is somewhere between the bow and target. It'll usually show up in an untuned arrow that "points" at maybe 60 degrees to the target shortly before it hits. I expect there is some forshortening and therefore an exaggerated apparent angle in this case. It is easier with reflective aluminium arrows that tend to catch the light, or if very big fletches are used. With my ACEs at about 60 m/s, I don't see the arrow at all from when I release until I'm practically pulling it out of the target.

This has been the case for as long as I've been shooting, almost 10 years starting as a teenager. My average nearsighted eyesight is corrected to normal with glasses or contact lense; my visual reaction time is average; I have no other problems with my sight and can drive/cycle fine, and I am in good health. One thing that is likely relevant is that my rapid hand eye coordination in school rivaled that of a sloth - by the time I can see an object coming at me and figure out where to put my hand to catch it, it's usually long gone. So there's a distinct possibility that my eyes/brain are just a bit on the slow side and everyone else has been happily watch arrows writhing around in flight, or at least getting enough information to use when adjusting tuning.
 

Timid Toad

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In my garden I shoot 30m with a dark shadow one side, a black boss at the end and the light falling on the other. This means that on a sunny day I can see a large portion of my arrow flight when shooting blank boss. In addition to bareshaft tuning I do look for nock-follows-point so this is really helpful.
 

geoffretired

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I think it is far easier to watch other people's arrows flying than your own.
If you stand well back from the shooting line, the arrows of other archers are far enough away from you as soon as they start their flight; and the flight path can be followed.
Arrows that leave the bow with the tail not directly behind the point, can be seen to waggle side to side; and sometimes up and down.This waggling stops usually quite quickly as the fletchings reduce the movement.
If you try to watch your own arrows, the early part where most waggling occurs is very difficult to catch.
For first stages of arrow tuning, a few bare shafts will land in the target at 20yds in such a way that they indicate what was wrong. There is no need to watch them.
 
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Deleted member 7654

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I can see 'em go from my self Yew field bow and ELBs... different matter with heavier bows or a flight bow.
With a flight bow, if you can see it go, it's a bad loose or a poor flight bow.
I daresay the bows of modern materials with skinny arrows make it more difficult to watch 'em go.
What I find impressive is the noise they make if you hear one go past (from a securely sheltered position), even my field bow shooting regular arrows if pretty scary but a warbow arrow sounds a bit like a steam train going past 😲
Del
 

Cereleste

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I've watched other people's arrows with about the same success as my own, and as I can tune fine with the other methods so there's no "need" to see them fly. It's just that the common parlance implies that a flying arrow is something that the archer, or at least someone standing nearby at an angle, can be observed with about the same ease as throwing a pen, so I'd be surprised if the language about observing arrow flight was mainly allegorical.
@Timid Toad , about the portion of arrow flight that you can see - if an arrow is fishtailing or otherwise bending, does it show up like the bending in slow motion videos (but faster), or is there a bit of a stroboscopic effect?
@geoffretired is the waggling a smooth movement or just that sometimes the arrow is pointing up or down during flight?
@Del the Cat is it more of a whooshing sound or a whistle? I've got a few brick walls in the flat that make a proper barrier, time to convince my partner to get his bow out :) .
 

modernlongbow

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The warbow arrow weighed at least 6oz, 4 of which were the iron bodkin point. F = ma, and we can't chronograph one of those at more than 180"/s. This rate notwithstanding, don't be there when it arrives, because it'll arrive with footpounds of force.
 

Timid Toad

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I can see all sorts of things going on: If the back end kicks out, or if the arrow steps across (usually a consequence of hitting the rest) I can also see the arrow wriggling if it's not well tuned. If it's pretty much on the money it just appears to soar away straight, with the nock directly behind the point. I don't see strobing no, as there's (mostly) nothing to break the light falling across the range.
 

geoffretired

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The flexing of the shaft that shows up in slow mo videos is too fast for normal eyes to see. When we see " good" arrow flight it's because there are no slow side to side kicks or up sand down that would be detected, if the flight was poor.
Usually poor flight shows as the arrow leaves the string; but the archer who shot it is usually too close or too busy to see it. Often someone else tells you they can see the arrows kicking out or coming out with the tail to one side.
 

Rik

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As a contrarian point: I was told that unless there's an obvious problem, you ignore flight. You don't get points for flight, just results. So you tune for results, and ignore what it looks like.
 

Timid Toad

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I've spent a lot of time with archers who shoot off the shelf with no button and no sights, so getting out to 30m to tune, often with a 50lb bow is not they way they do it. Looking for flight is very important. So I've incorporated some of their rules into my regime too. Good flight is good efficiency. Good Loose. It tells you if something's going wrong, damaged fletching, form issue.

And there's a huge amount of pleasure in watching a great shot go sailing downrange like, well, and arrow should!
 

Whitehart

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Watching your own arrows can be counter productive as without realising it you tend to move something to see the arrow and not finishing the shot correctly. Subconsciously though I think we all watch our arrows and pick up clues, at the longer distances seeing an arrow fly straight and true is one of the pleasures of our sport. Although scores are better when not watching arrows or even looking through my scope after most shots.
 
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Deleted member 7654

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I've watched other people's arrows with about the same success as my own, and as I can tune fine with the other methods so there's no "need" to see them fly. It's just that the common parlance implies that a flying arrow is something that the archer, or at least someone standing nearby at an angle, can be observed with about the same ease as throwing a pen, so I'd be surprised if the language about observing arrow flight was mainly allegorical.
@Timid Toad , about the portion of arrow flight that you can see - if an arrow is fishtailing or otherwise bending, does it show up like the bending in slow motion videos (but faster), or is there a bit of a stroboscopic effect?
@geoffretired is the waggling a smooth movement or just that sometimes the arrow is pointing up or down during flight?
@Del the Cat is it more of a whooshing sound or a whistle? I've got a few brick walls in the flat that make a proper barrier, time to convince my partner to get his bow out :) .
Whoosh/roar.. with a pinch of buzz. Followed by an impressive thud as it hits the boss.
Del
 

little-else

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now there is a lot to listening to the arrows as well as watching them.
One problem with Lb and a lack of a shelf or arrow rest is the smallest of changes in your hand position causes the arrows to behave like demented sea creatures with their porpoising, fishtailing etc and that isnt because they are not tuned.
Agree it is easier to watch other people's arrows but I can usually tell when mine are on a path towards the ground rather then the boss by the slightly different sound on release telling me the arrow is flicking the back end up/down according to how differetly it was in contact with my glove before it took off
 

Cereleste

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It looks like the consensus is that the vast majority, when stood at a suitable distance and angle, can see movement as an arrow flies. Most can also (though maybe shouldn't) see their own arrow fly, at least somewhat. Wriggling and fishtailing and planing arrows are literal descriptions of what people can see and are not just figurative or metaphorical. I've answered the question of *can* others see these things - the *should* is not relevant.

I am somewhat missing out on one of the pleasures of the sport, or at least on something interesting and entertaining, and would like to see what others can. I did a test with holding a pen at arm's length and dropping it. While I could only follow its movement for a foot or so before it "disappeared", my partner and a friend reported seeing it fall smoothly until it hit the ground. The name for this is smooth pursuit, and a range of conditions (none of which I am currently aware of having) can cause deficiencies in the maximum speed at which it occurs. I have more research to do as to whether this is something I can improve with practice/time.
 
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Deleted member 7654

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It looks like the consensus is that the vast majority, when stood at a suitable distance and angle, can see movement as an arrow flies. Most can also (though maybe shouldn't) see their own arrow fly, at least somewhat. Wriggling and fishtailing and planing arrows are literal descriptions of what people can see and are not just figurative or metaphorical. I've answered the question of *can* others see these things - the *should* is not relevant.

I am somewhat missing out on one of the pleasures of the sport, or at least on something interesting and entertaining, and would like to see what others can. I did a test with holding a pen at arm's length and dropping it. While I could only follow its movement for a foot or so before it "disappeared", my partner and a friend reported seeing it fall smoothly until it hit the ground. The name for this is smooth pursuit, and a range of conditions (none of which I am currently aware of having) can cause deficiencies in the maximum speed at which it occurs. I have more research to do as to whether this is something I can improve with practice/time.
Get a slow bow wooden ELB, a 3/8" diameter arrow with BIG black and white fletchings (5"or longer), . Shoot it up into the air at 45 degrees on a clear sunny day and you should be able to see it...
The trick is, don't try to watch it go... just fill your vision with sky and suddenly a matchstick will appear about 2/3 towards the top of its trajectory.. it will flick out of sight as it is tail on to you for a spilt second... then you'll pick it up again as it turns over and accelerates towards the ground with the fletchings flashing black and white as it spins :). You'll see it hit the ground and then maybe hear the thud.
Del
 

Stretch

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I try not to watch arrow flight but sometimes you can’t help but notice. I always expect my arrows to fly clean on a clean release. I’ve heard the “you don’t get points for good arrow flight” but can only imagine it was uttered by someone who never shoots in wind. An arrow flying with stability takes a lot less wind than an arrow that has a lot of wobble. (So an arrow with good flight drifts less).

Of course your arrow will often look like it is flying badly in wind, especially if using spin wings - just don’t look.

A while back I was borderline between x10 410 and 450. The 410 seemed a bit more forgiving but it was just the extra weight. In wind the 450 drifted much less (despite being lighter) and that sealed the deal.

If you can’t see them chances are they are flying clean enough so you can stop looking :rolleyes:

Stretch
 
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