Serious String Walking Problem

JackC41

New member
Locked in my home due the virus, I am limited to daily archery practice in my 'garden' which is only big enough for 5 - 6 metres shooting.

As I am nearly at intermediate level I am enjoying the opportunity to practice my form. So far, I have improved several aspects to a point where I can get really tight groups.

I am shooting Easton superlite A/C/C arrows on a recurve barebow and have been gap shooting. For the past few days I have made a determined effort to learn string walking.
After sorting out where to set the 5 metre crawl string indicator (at 2 1/2 inches below the arrow nock) I can usually place the arrow right on the target in the vertical plane. However, the arrows usually end up 2 - 3 inches right of the target.

I have tried applying a negative tiller but that made very little difference. Winding the plunger all the way in hasn't made much difference.

Is this a typical result and what can I do to correct it? I really do want to learn to use string walking over 40 - 50 range when we are finally allowed out to play at the range but am starting to doubt that it will be something that I can achieve.

Any helpful advice would be welcome.

Jack
 


JohnK

Well-known member
Hi. Dabbler in barebow here :)

Yes, it is not uncommon for stringwalkers to find that their arrows move right or left as they crawl down the string.

Even some current top stringwalking archers aim slightly off at shorter distances, or adjust plunger tension as they make their way around a field course. Until recently, I assumed that was just a fact of life when stringwalking, but then I read Martin Godio's "The Art of Stringwalking".

It's a fantastic book, and unpacks all the complexity of stringwalking, and how to achieve a better tune. I cannot recommend highly enough that you invest in a copy and work your way through it. You can find it easily on the usual bookselling websites :)

Good luck!
 


geoffretired

Supporter
Supporter
So, I am curious about this moving across to one side or the other.
Is it caused by the arrow leaving the bow differently because it is on a different position on the string compared to the hand?
Or is it caused by the archer seeing the arrow alignment differently, because it is in a different position relative to the eye.?
Or something I haven't thought about?? heehee
 


KidCurry

Well-known member
Is it caused by the arrow leaving the bow differently because it is on a different position on the string compared to the hand?...
No, it's generally caused by the draw length. As you walk the fingers down the string the draw length gets shorter. Not to the fingers but to the arrow nock on the string. The shorter draw means less energy and a stiffer arrow response. Without softening the button the arrow is generally pushed left for a right handed archer, ie button stiff response.
I shoot a Shibuya DX so adjust the screw by 1/4 turn when going from 50m to 30m. I would get a click adjustable button if they were not so expensive but the Shibuya works fine.
However, button spring tension is not the 'all' of barebow tuning. Martin Godio's book is excellent as JK said above but moving the arrow position in and out also has some role to play. Watch Grayson Partlowe's video below, very interesting.

 


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geoffretired

Supporter
Supporter
Thanks for that,never thought about the arrow draw length!!! heehee.
Like the idea of knowing in advance what centre shot adjustment to make for a given set of circumstances.
I remember when I first started shooting; I visited Ian Dixon( a top Uk archer along with Roy Mattews)
He told me it was OK to have sight marks, but better still to know how much to adjust it if the arrows were not landing in the middle. He had a colour value for his sight marks( so much adjustment for a one colour change).
 


Stretch

Active member
Just checking, but is your bow vertical when shooting? Or do you cant? That will affect the Left to Right for sure.

While I fully understand the reduced drawlength issue mentioned above... is it really going to make a noticeable difference at 6m? I just don’t see it. I can shoot my bow from max weight to min weight that close and it make no discernible difference.

Stretch
 


geoffretired

Supporter
Supporter
Interesting.
When we tune a bow we take several of things into consideration, like draw weight , centre shot, button stiffness, brace height and nocking point height.
I have often wondered about the part played by the bow string. To my way of thinking, the frequency of the string's oscillations, will play some part in what "attitude" or alignment, the arrow is in at the point of separation. The back end of the arrow is not free to move just as it will in free air, so the string movements will impact on how the arrow aligns. Changing the weight of the string or using more/less serving will affect the the movements of the string ( side to side) and also the tune.
It might also be that having the flex of the string starting at the fingers when well way from the arrow nock, could play a part in how the arrow aligns at separation. The arrow nock is at a different point in relation to the flex imparted by the fingers at release.
 


dvd8n

Supporter
Supporter
The arrow definitely moves left and right according to the crawl, and it always seems to me that there was more than could be accounted for than just the draw length.

The string is an interesting idea. There is way more centre serving on a string walking bow and the amount above and below the nock varies from shot to shot, as does the flex position. Surely you're right that it has an effect.
 


Stretch

Active member
The theory is that the bow is quietest and has least vibration when the nock detaches in-line. Which is why so many of us determine brace height by sound. (And so many who have other ways of doing it). Problem is that it is not always easy to do because there are other things that cause vibration and noise :poop:

And yes, you often have to change other things if you change string material/ strands/serving etc. But also bear in mind that 2cm of serving (when served, so about 260mm) does not register on a grain scale so less than 1gr.

So tune your bow to give the quietest/least vibration result at a broad range of walk? (Ha ha ha)having said that, I doubt it would be enough to cause a 3 inch delta at 6m. I can’t say I’ve ever noticed a L/R movement when stringwalking but I’ve only messed about with it between 10m and 30m. And while it wasn’t bad, it wasn’t great either.

So getting to the point, any difference of this size surely has to be related to the archers physical shooting form rather than the mechanics of the equipment? (Or the arrows are very stiff or not clearing).

Stretch
 


geoffretired

Supporter
Supporter
I am only putting out ideas; I have no proof. But we can hear differences in stringed instruments when the rate of vibration changes and the notes don't sound right. Small weight differences may not show on a grain scale but in the right place, the extra could change the way the string oscillates. I would imagine that plucking the string at different places along its length, on a bow or a musical instrument, would be audibly different. I think it is possible to generate different harmonics just by changing where the string is plucked.
 


KidCurry

Well-known member
I would imagine that plucking the string at different places along its length, on a bow or a musical instrument, would be audibly different. I think it is possible to generate different harmonics just by changing where the string is plucked.
So I just tried on my ukulele. No difference. :) Which makes sense as the string oscillation is a mathematical relationship to its length being a closed string. The problem with a recurve bow is it is a sting retained by another spring at each end. I wouldn't know where to begin :(
One of the issues with string walking a long way is the bottom limb is always partially dry fired. It is where the bottom limb has to take up the slack after release and before the limb starts pulling against the arrow. It is why string walking any distance will always be louder than a conventional release.
 


JohnK

Well-known member
Basically, string walking massively detunes the bow. So yes, it's entirely possible to get wild results at extremes of your crawl, especially if the arrow is bouncing off the rest.

Tuning a barebow for stringwalking is a far greater technical challenge than tuning a target recurve. If I'd had Martin's book and had invested more time in tuning (and if I hadn't had terribly bad target panic at the time!), I'd have done a lot better when I was last shooting that style.
 


geoffretired

Supporter
Supporter
So I just tried on my ukulele. No difference
Heehee! I remember watching a programme on TV where a string was plucked in order to produce the " fundamental " note... if that's the right term.The slow mo showed a single wave moving side to side. Then plucking in a different position produced the first harmonic, so an "s" shape appeared in the string. By moving the pluck point, several waves were generated in the string.
Slow mo videos of arrows being launched show a very erratic movement of the string and shaft as the flex of the shaft and the waving of the string react with each other in a complex pattern.
 


KidCurry

Well-known member
I haven't done any Fourier Analysis since my early engineering days :) I tried using a plectrum instead of plucking and if right at one end of the string you can hear a higher harmonic. I found this on YouTube which is interesting, although it may only apply to a closed string, or maybe a bow with limbs correctly tillered, or even incorrectly tillered. It's interesting the gentleman is effectively string walking.
I can't find any SloMo of someone string walking.

Oooo, Ooooo, found some. Really interesting... (ignore the title)
 


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JackC41

New member
Where do I start?........
Firstly, thanks for all the replies and help.

I didn't expect to get so much detail and information about twanging strings and noisy bows etc.

I tracked down a mate who HAD a copy of the Martin Godio book. I've not had a chance to get all the detail from it but it looks like a lengthy read to absorb everything hence the emphasis on 'HAD".

I'm just about to set up the target and see if I have learned anything so far. This could be a long process !!
 


geoffretired

Supporter
Supporter
It seems to me that when the string walker's hand is well below the arrow, there are two changes for the arrow to put up with. One is that the arrow isn't so far back as usual. The other is, when the fingers deflect the string to one side, the nock of the arrow does not get the same amount of deflection. The maximum deflection is at the fingers and the string is deflected less at points further way from the fingers. The arrow nock will be deflected less than if the fingers were straddling the nock.
If one mm of centre shot adjustment can affect the arrow flight; I would imagine a change to the position of the back of the arrow, at release of the fingers, would have some effect.
 


Stretch

Active member
Basically, string walking massively detunes the bow. So yes, it's entirely possible to get wild results at extremes of your crawl, especially if the arrow is bouncing off the rest.
Right, I agree with all of that. But what you’re saying is that the bow has radically de-tuned due to the walk away from the nocking point. So either not clearing, or bouncing. In which case the base tune needs to be changed to compensate for the full range that will be walked. Right?

All I am saying is that a inch or so less/more pull will not de-tune a bow that much. At least not with any bow I’ve ever owned (Which as you know is a few...). It’s the off centre limb delivery where your tiller and nock point have to be a compromise that works across the full range needed.

I’d be interested to know if the guy in the video posted by KidCurry uses this tune when shooting multiple distances or if this is a 18m only tune.

So - to the OP it seems like the advice is follow the setup procedure in the book? (Which I nearly bought on Amazon even though I don’t stringwalk... much... unless I’m bored...). £8 on Kindle seems like a potential bargain if it has a strong method.

Stretch (who is easily diverted from what he should be doing this week)
 


JackC41

New member
Started today by re-setting plunger, arrow rest, tiller and centershot etc to original and confirmed very good (by my standard) shots on a vertical line without string walking.

Then messed about with string walking at 5 yards, adjusting the plunger settings without great improvement.

Then, as per Martin Godio's advice I changed the centershot 1 full turn to the left.
Bingo! I hit 4 different 1.5 inch targets no problem. At the end of the session I returned the centershot setting and resumed normal service on the vertical line.

I'm not kidding myself that it will be that simple when I finally get back to the range but at least I understand a bit more about how things can be changed via the plunger.

Now, a couple of shots of Highland Park in the sunshine while I read more of the good book. :)

Thanks again to you all.


Jack
 


JohnK

Well-known member
Right, I agree with all of that. But what you’re saying is that the bow has radically de-tuned due to the walk away from the nocking point. So either not clearing, or bouncing. In which case the base tune needs to be changed to compensate for the full range that will be walked. Right?
Basically, yes, but it's not an easy thing to achieve. As I understand it, most stringwalkers either tune at the middle range of their crawl (so for WA field, about 25 metres), or tune for the longest distance (50m), and then aim off or adjust their plunger where necessary.

But as Godio's book explains, it does seem that it's possible to do some fine tuning that will get you a better tune over the entire range of the walk, although I reckon it will always be a bit of a compromise.

So yes, as above, just do what Godio says and I reckon you won't go far wrong :)
 


Kerf

Supporter
Supporter
Basically, yes, but it's not an easy thing to achieve. As I understand it, most stringwalkers either tune at the middle range of their crawl (so for WA field, about 25 metres), or tune for the longest distance (50m), and then aim off or adjust their plunger where necessary.
I think that’s the best advice. I tune my rig for 30m and have found it pretty much covers all eventualities, except for very short distances. But as I only shoot target I’m hardly ever faced with anything below 18m/20 yards. But the best tune you can get for 30m still keeps the bow sweet for 18m and out. It still remains a tuning compromise however.
 


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