Shooting pellets vs arrows

PLEASE HELP TO FUND ARCHERY INTERCHANGE

Kernowlad

Supporter
Supporter
After much faffing (literally years and years) I was finally given the green light on an air rifle for myself and the children. When we took up archery it was partly as a substitute; a bow that, with the right arrow head, could kill a bear was okay, an air rifle that would do far less damage wasn’t...
Anyway I decided on PCP, good quality but basic; single shot only and went for British brand, Air Arms; the S400 carbine. Light enough for the kids, accurate enough for me.

I then did my usual thing which is to obsessively research the subject to death including a few FB groups and a forum.

What I have noticed is that Air Rifle world is FAR busier; the forum has a message every few minutes, the groups are lively.
Many air rifle enthusiasts also do compound archery. Several have swooned over my fairly modest but solid archery kit.
Enthusiasts range from the very enthusiastic to the near rocket scientists fretting about the tiniest detail.
Costs are similar for the basics, silly if you are very serious.
Having an expendable projectile is rather handy.
Air rifles are way more accurate to about 50 yards then arrows take over.
It’s quite handy not each needing an individual shooting device.
You don’t need to join a governing body yet you can kill stuff with an air rifle; slightly weird!
They do the equivalent of field archery and it looks brilliant.
I have two fun shops within 20 minutes of me. Nearest archery shop? Well over two hours.

It feels like air rifle shooting is far more popular and a bit less stuffy/old fashioned; do the two go hand in hand? Is it maybe that it’s more accessible?

None of these are criticisms, just observations but could any of these help archery get a bit more popular and maybe update it’s image? I feel it needs a bit of a push into 2020.
 
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Stretch

Active member
The thing about shooting an air rifle is that some level of consistency is achievable in a very short time behind the gun. You can look good easily but to be at the top the margins are so small it is crazy. Lots of folks plink in the garden, benchrest, Hunter Field and Field target, hunters and collectors and then you have enough “enthusiasts” to support at least 3 magazines. You also have the “gun nuts” nowadays who collect replica Airguns because they aren’t allowed the real thing. But I can not pick up a rifle for months and be knocking over 25mm kill zone tin chickens on my first shot at 50m Shooting off my knee. In archery you just can’t do that sort of drop-in drop-out and expect good results. Bottom line is that shooting is fun and airguns are a very accessible way of doing it.

Realistically competition FT and HFT comes down to who can estimate the distance best and whole can hit positional shots (standing and kneeling in FT) and judge the wind. Oh, and pellet testing... and more pellet testing... yuk.

But I still own more bows than airguns :p

Zenith Walther LG300 Dominator Alutec with a Sightron 10-50x60 scope which is a beast and won all sorts of competitions with its previous owner, still cost a lot less than my bow, and my spare bow for that matter. But then if you buy a new top end 10m gun and have it converted and put a £2.5k March scope on it your airgun costs way exceed bow costs.

Bottom line is that it is just so much easier to “get into” any kind of gun sport until you start going into Firearms territory. Archery is less accessible because there is a period at the beginning where 99.9% of people are pretty rubbish for quite a long time :rolleyes:

2p

Stretch
 

Kernowlad

Supporter
Supporter
One rather over defensive reply and that’s it.
And the Archery UK group seems to have flung off anyone that isn’t a disciple of AGB.

People won’t listen to new ideas. People are weirdly snobby and get upset at the strangest of things.

Out field target club is fantastic but they don’t meet up much so it’s mostly garden pinging but we’ll hang onto our kit and cease trying to share enthusiasm, advise, etc with the small number of UK archers left.
Without new ideas, without looking at other similar pastimes, the sport does not have a rosy future.

What do you think appeals to the younger generation? Oh hang on, that’s not ever considered.
It’s all about blinkers, complacency and past minor victories.
 

Stretch

Active member
Defensive? Explain please.

I am currently a member of an airgun club. (£40 p/a unlimited shooting)

I currently have NO archery affiliation.

What am I being defensive about?

:unsure:

Stretch
 

dvd8n

Supporter
Supporter
AIUK Saviour
I'd argue that AGB doesn't have a problem attracting the young - every time there's a Brave or a Hunger Games the club gets an influx.

It's problem is keeping them.

In my mind the issue is that the form of archery that AGB promotes just isn't as much fun as what you see on the telly.
 
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Bandit

Active member
I'd argue that AGB doesn't have a problem attracting the young - every time there's a Brave or a Hunger Games the club gets an influx.

It's problem is keeping them.

In my mind the issue is that the form of archery that AGB promotes just isn't as much fun as what you see on the telly.
Indeed. I see archery as more of a discipline than a sport. To become good at it takes patience and repetitive actions that can be rather boring for some.
 

Timid Toad

Moderator
Staff member
Supporter
Fonz Awardee
Ironman
Ok, let's flip this: you have the ideas, the vision and the drive. Take it on yourself.

This is not a defensive comment. It's an observation that you post here quite a lot about it. Maybe this isn't the right place. Maybe it is but it needs leadership.



You're up.
 

Riceburner

Active member
One rather over defensive reply and that’s it.
And the Archery UK group seems to have flung off anyone that isn’t a disciple of AGB.

People won’t listen to new ideas. People are weirdly snobby and get upset at the strangest of things.

Out field target club is fantastic but they don’t meet up much so it’s mostly garden pinging but we’ll hang onto our kit and cease trying to share enthusiasm, advise, etc with the small number of UK archers left.
Without new ideas, without looking at other similar pastimes, the sport does not have a rosy future.

What do you think appeals to the younger generation? Oh hang on, that’s not ever considered.
It’s all about blinkers, complacency and past minor victories.

I didn't see that reply as being overly defensive tbh.

Looks though, like we're hitting a conversation that's been had before a lot - how to keep people interested when the discipline is a hard one to master. I daresay the military experts who bemoaned the incoming of the musket and the reduction in archery companies had the same thoughts! :D
 

dvd8n

Supporter
Supporter
AIUK Saviour
Ok, let's flip this: you have the ideas, the vision and the drive. Take it on yourself.

This is not a defensive comment. It's an observation that you post here quite a lot about it. Maybe this isn't the right place. Maybe it is but it needs leadership.



You're up.
You are right and you are wrong here.

I think that you are possibly right that if AGB needs some leadership with fresh ideas, then it would be nice if the people complaining would step up to the mark. But being that person needs a huge commitment to work within the system until a position of responsibility is reached whereupon that person can enact their ideas. Years later. Not many people have the free time and commitment to do that. And it's easier for a person to work up the ranks if that person supports the status quo.

Unfortunately, it's easier to just walk away, which is what kernowlad did. But, the down side is that leads to fragmentation, which leads to things like the NFAS, the EFF, EFAS, SFF, NFF, STAAFA etc. The Porsche Owners Club and The Porsche Drivers Club. Debian, Red Hat, Ubuntu, Mint. The Judean Popular Front and The Popular Front of Judea.

This fragmentation is bad, and the only people who realistically can do anything about it are the people who are in charge at the moment. They need to set aside their ego, put in place feedback mechanisms, listen to the complainers and assess their issues and act on them. Not necessarily acquiesce, but at least explain why they can't.

I honestly believe that AGB are trying, bringing in one man one vote. Time will tell if they are trying hard enough.
 
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Kernowlad

Supporter
Supporter
You are right and you are wrong here.

I think that you are possibly right that if AGB needs some leadership with fresh ideas, then it would be nice if the people complaining would step up to the mark. But being that person needs a huge commitment to work within the system until a position of responsibility is reached whereupon that person can enact their ideas. Years later. Not many people have the free time and commitment to do that. And it's easier for a person to work up the ranks if that person supports the status quo.

Unfortunately, it's easier to just walk away, which is what kernowlad did. But, the down side is that leads to fragmentation, which leads to things like the NFAS, the EFF, EFAS, SFF, NFF, STAAFA etc. The Porsche Owners Club and The Porsche Drivers Club. Debian, Red Hat, Ubuntu, Mint. The Judean Popular Front and The Popular Front of Judea.

This fragmentation is bad, and the only people who realistically can do anything about it are the people who are in charge at the moment. They need to set aside their ego, put in place feedback mechanisms, listen to the complainers and assess their issues and act on them. Not necessarily acquiesce, but at least explain why they can't.

I honestly believe that AGB are trying, bringing in one man one vote. Time will tell if they are trying hard enough.
If there was a ministry of hitting nails on heads, you’d be in charge.
 

Whitehart

Well-known member
Archery in the UK is very small, the membership would fit in to Wembley stadium even with the current social distancing guidelines.

It feels like the central governing bodies of our sport have done nothing but try to stop archery during the last 8/9 months and continue to do so and they would appear not to understand that established archers can shoot safely and adhere to all government guidelines on insured commercial ranges and in back gardens, something that any airgun shooter can do without question. The thought of people using their common sense....OK some people do need sensible guidance rather than just being told NO you cannot do it and then they go away and do it anyway opening up the potential for issues, better to advise than just say NO.

We have probably seen more activity from non archers during the last 8 months than established archers because most archers/clubs cannot be bothered with all the restrictions or are too scared to shoot for fear of running foul of the insurance. We are always running beginners courses for clubs so they don't lose potential members - win win for everyone.

If the figures are right for the past 10 years we have lost some 100,000 archers to churn, think how much bigger our sport would be today if they held on to 25% of that! Justification for more shops and bigger clubs with good facilities.

Archery is not short of people wanting to take up the sport, but the current process just does not fit in with peoples lives or expectations. It is always "no you cannot do that", "I would not advise this", "you have to do a (long winded) beginners course" - oh sorry we are not running one for 5 months!! and some take weeks to reply to enquiries. This is not the fault of the clubs after all most people join a club to shoot, not end up on a committee or spending all their evenings running courses, but it needs some joined up writing from Counties and Regions to process these people centrally and get them shooting and perhaps feeding them down to clubs via a local coaching guild initiative.

Archery also ignores the real growth areas in our sport today Barebow and Compound, BB is getting better but the lengths some go to put off archers shooting Compound is mind boggling - why probably because coaches are not taught how to teach it.

We need to be able to say "yes" more often and remove all the barriers to people just wanting to shoot arrows.
 

Kernowlad

Supporter
Supporter
Archery in the UK is very small, the membership would fit in to Wembley stadium even with the current social distancing guidelines.

It feels like the central governing bodies of our sport have done nothing but try to stop archery during the last 8/9 months and continue to do so and they would appear not to understand that established archers can shoot safely and adhere to all government guidelines on insured commercial ranges and in back gardens, something that any airgun shooter can do without question. The thought of people using their common sense....OK some people do need sensible guidance rather than just being told NO you cannot do it and then they go away and do it anyway opening up the potential for issues, better to advise than just say NO.

We have probably seen more activity from non archers during the last 8 months than established archers because most archers/clubs cannot be bothered with all the restrictions or are too scared to shoot for fear of running foul of the insurance. We are always running beginners courses for clubs so they don't lose potential members - win win for everyone.

If the figures are right for the past 10 years we have lost some 100,000 archers to churn, think how much bigger our sport would be today if they held on to 25% of that! Justification for more shops and bigger clubs with good facilities.

Archery is not short of people wanting to take up the sport, but the current process just does not fit in with peoples lives or expectations. It is always "no you cannot do that", "I would not advise this", "you have to do a (long winded) beginners course" - oh sorry we are not running one for 5 months!! and some take weeks to reply to enquiries. This is not the fault of the clubs after all most people join a club to shoot, not end up on a committee or spending all their evenings running courses, but it needs some joined up writing from Counties and Regions to process these people centrally and get them shooting and perhaps feeding them down to clubs via a local coaching guild initiative.

Archery also ignores the real growth areas in our sport today Barebow and Compound, BB is getting better but the lengths some go to put off archers shooting Compound is mind boggling - why probably because coaches are not taught how to teach it.

We need to be able to say "yes" more often and remove all the barriers to people just wanting to shoot arrows.
Also nails on heads.
 

Timid Toad

Moderator
Staff member
Supporter
Fonz Awardee
Ironman
You are right and you are wrong here.

I think that you are possibly right that if AGB needs some leadership with fresh ideas, then it would be nice if the people complaining would step up to the mark. But being that person needs a huge commitment to work within the system until a position of responsibility is reached whereupon that person can enact their ideas. Years later. Not many people have the free time and commitment to do that. And it's easier for a person to work up the ranks if that person supports the status quo.

Unfortunately, it's easier to just walk away, which is what kernowlad did. But, the down side is that leads to fragmentation, which leads to things like the NFAS, the EFF, EFAS, SFF, NFF, STAAFA etc. The Porsche Owners Club and The Porsche Drivers Club. Debian, Red Hat, Ubuntu, Mint. The Judean Popular Front and The Popular Front of Judea.

This fragmentation is bad, and the only people who realistically can do anything about it are the people who are in charge at the moment. They need to set aside their ego, put in place feedback mechanisms, listen to the complainers and assess their issues and act on them. Not necessarily acquiesce, but at least explain why they can't.

I honestly believe that AGB are trying, bringing in one man one vote. Time will tell if they are trying hard enough.
Absolutely, but heck, no point moaning here about it. If Kernowlad wants sport-wide change, maybe he should be the catalyst, and being a keyboard warrior is the last method. *That* is my point. A lot of noisy complaining, but no one wants to help improve anything.
 

Timid Toad

Moderator
Staff member
Supporter
Fonz Awardee
Ironman
Whiteheart You are absolutely right in that County could be filling roles in a structured beginners process because a lot of clubs enjoy and are glad to run beginners courses ( we keep ours short, sweet and include ELB, BB, as well as Compound and Recurve) but keeping on top of enquiries, bookings and admin could be managed centrally.
 

Kernowlad

Supporter
Supporter
Absolutely, but heck, no point moaning here about it. If Kernowlad wants sport-wide change, maybe he should be the catalyst, and being a keyboard warrior is the last method. *That* is my point. A lot of noisy complaining, but no one wants to help improve anything.
Yep and I take your point. What I have seen is a very patient, dedicated and reasonably talented boy have his enthusiasm crushed by the system. He loves field archery (as do I) and we’re both NFAS members but it’s a very occasional thing partly due to covid. That is why I’m a bit miffed but I also realise we just do too much other stuff to ever be truly dedicated.
A dip into the waters of air rifle shooting has revealed a more popular, more inclusive world that seems so much more accessible but again we can’t and won’t fully immerse ourselves in it due to all the stuff we do.
So yes I probably come across as a whining old fart but my intentions are genuinely good; I want kids to love archery, I want old fashioned attitudes to change but do I have time to actively do much about it? Nope.
 

little-else

Supporter
Supporter
AIUK Saviour
When I shot rifle and pistol I had an FWB 300s for 10m target shooting and if I fancied a bit of field I would stick a scope on it that was designed for smallbore 25m running game.
A comparison between groups at different distances arent easy to amke because the targets are different sizes. I shot benchrest fullbore rifle with a .223 and in the year before they banned self loading rifles won the NRA Imperial meet 200yd snap shooting event using a M14 with home made scope mount. that caused a bit of a stir amongst the usual TR lot.
Iused to shoot a lot of long range pistol as well as historic arms so making my own ammuniton to get the best performance out of a particular gun was an obsession..
If I was to pick up on top level target shooting again I would need a lot of money, you cant get a "decent TR rifle for under 3 grand.
Having said that I used to coach cadets at air rifle using Gamo underlever aitr rifles with a diopter rear sight and my lot all earned their proficiency badges at the highest level awarded so even accuracy is subjective. If I had loaned them my FWB no doubt they would have all achievd higher scores but that would ahve made no difference to their classifications.
I also won the NSRA/Eley sporting rifle champs using a 1903 savage pump with iron midsights beating those with a modern laminate stock and scope. I suppose that the other finalists that year lacked the practice at standing rifle and a lack of stamina did for them with all that weight to lift and aim.
So you may wonder why I do archery. I am now disabled so cant shoot rifle and pistol and took up archery as an exercise first and sport second. This means I arent going to spend the sort of money that I would have done in the past to achieve things because I just cant shoot to any sort of level that would justify the expenditure.
Attitude is almost contagious, if a club is not welcoming of a certain style then the people who want to participate in that will migrate to a club where it is more popular. If there are a number of clubs within reasonable travelling distance then it makes those sorts of decisions easy. same goes for facilities, if you have space for a good field shoot then people will utilise it and join to do so. if you dotn ahve that facility then you arent going to keep members whose sole interest is field.

AGB handicaps itself by charging miles too much per head for club membership and that causes those who dotn do traditional target to look elsewhere for their leadership. How they have reacted to the Covid crisis to my mind is telling and I doubt if they can continue as they are beyond next year but the messages sent out from the top dont fill me with any sense that they will adapt and TBH the region/county and club structure isnt proactive enough to create the necessary changes either.

No-one needs to join an archery club as long as they have enough land to shoot on but individual insurance for specific risks would be quite high if you decided to try and organise formal shooting with others without belonging to some umbrella organisation even if you went to the same insurer as AGB. i cant see that air weapons shooting would be any cheaper to insure. this means that anyone can buy a bow or gun and plink or twang away to their hearts content but you have to accept that you will not be able to join in other people's games becasue there is every incentive from the governing bodies from stopping you from having the best of both worlds. It took AGB yonks to allow block enrolment for universities and that was because the BUSF ran their own championships with or without AGB so they were invited into the tent.
If enough people got together to form a new body that covered all aspects of archery, including those who twang in their back garden and offered parallel classification schemes and probably new more relevant rounds then AGB would sit up and take notice and have to offer a better vlue for money membership As it stands they are a monopoly and dont they know it. A figurehead who is famous or used to walk in the corridors of power wouldnt go amiss either, PR is expensive. The NRA of America used to have Charlton Heston as its president so anyone got Angelina Jolie's phone number?
 

dvd8n

Supporter
Supporter
AIUK Saviour
When I shot rifle and pistol I had an FWB 300s for 10m target shooting and if I fancied a bit of field I would stick a scope on it that was designed for smallbore 25m running game.
A comparison between groups at different distances arent easy to amke because the targets are different sizes. I shot benchrest fullbore rifle with a .223 and in the year before they banned self loading rifles won the NRA Imperial meet 200yd snap shooting event using a M14 with home made scope mount. that caused a bit of a stir amongst the usual TR lot.
Iused to shoot a lot of long range pistol as well as historic arms so making my own ammuniton to get the best performance out of a particular gun was an obsession..
If I was to pick up on top level target shooting again I would need a lot of money, you cant get a "decent TR rifle for under 3 grand.
Having said that I used to coach cadets at air rifle using Gamo underlever aitr rifles with a diopter rear sight and my lot all earned their proficiency badges at the highest level awarded so even accuracy is subjective. If I had loaned them my FWB no doubt they would have all achievd higher scores but that would ahve made no difference to their classifications.
I also won the NSRA/Eley sporting rifle champs using a 1903 savage pump with iron midsights beating those with a modern laminate stock and scope. I suppose that the other finalists that year lacked the practice at standing rifle and a lack of stamina did for them with all that weight to lift and aim.
So you may wonder why I do archery. I am now disabled so cant shoot rifle and pistol and took up archery as an exercise first and sport second. This means I arent going to spend the sort of money that I would have done in the past to achieve things because I just cant shoot to any sort of level that would justify the expenditure.
Attitude is almost contagious, if a club is not welcoming of a certain style then the people who want to participate in that will migrate to a club where it is more popular. If there are a number of clubs within reasonable travelling distance then it makes those sorts of decisions easy. same goes for facilities, if you have space for a good field shoot then people will utilise it and join to do so. if you dotn ahve that facility then you arent going to keep members whose sole interest is field.

AGB handicaps itself by charging miles too much per head for club membership and that causes those who dotn do traditional target to look elsewhere for their leadership. How they have reacted to the Covid crisis to my mind is telling and I doubt if they can continue as they are beyond next year but the messages sent out from the top dont fill me with any sense that they will adapt and TBH the region/county and club structure isnt proactive enough to create the necessary changes either.

No-one needs to join an archery club as long as they have enough land to shoot on but individual insurance for specific risks would be quite high if you decided to try and organise formal shooting with others without belonging to some umbrella organisation even if you went to the same insurer as AGB. i cant see that air weapons shooting would be any cheaper to insure. this means that anyone can buy a bow or gun and plink or twang away to their hearts content but you have to accept that you will not be able to join in other people's games becasue there is every incentive from the governing bodies from stopping you from having the best of both worlds. It took AGB yonks to allow block enrolment for universities and that was because the BUSF ran their own championships with or without AGB so they were invited into the tent.
If enough people got together to form a new body that covered all aspects of archery, including those who twang in their back garden and offered parallel classification schemes and probably new more relevant rounds then AGB would sit up and take notice and have to offer a better vlue for money membership As it stands they are a monopoly and dont they know it. A figurehead who is famous or used to walk in the corridors of power wouldnt go amiss either, PR is expensive. The NRA of America used to have Charlton Heston as its president so anyone got Angelina Jolie's phone number?
You're basically talking about STAFAA, who are successful within their sphere but I don't believe will ever challenge AGB because AGB are associated with World Archery and the Olympic Committee.

Realistically, all that STAFAA do is force the good archers to join two associations.
 

geoffretired

Supporter
Supporter
I think we are forgetting that archers join clubs and see what they need to do when they watch the club members shooting.
It can seem very exciting from the point of view of the beginner about to buy their first set of gear. When it is their turn to shoot like the more experienced club members; for some, the reality hits home a bit suddenly.
I don't think target archery can be dressed up to look like an exciting pastime or sport.
When I started in archery I knew I wanted to continue; I knew I would want to get better and would try hard to do so. That is still a job in progress.... archery would be very boring if I didn't want more than just popping off a few arrows.
 

malbro

Instinctive Archer
Supporter
No-one needs to join an archery club as long as they have enough land to shoot on but individual insurance for specific risks would be quite high if you decided to try and organise formal shooting with others without belonging to some umbrella organisation even if you went to the same insurer as AGB
Individual insurance for archery is far less than the AGB membership cost, under £20 for £10million public liability.
 
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