Shooting pellets vs arrows

PLEASE HELP TO FUND ARCHERY INTERCHANGE

4d4m

Active member
A real similarity is the love of technically (and accuracy) inferior springers compared to the more accurate and consistent PCPs.
o_O I say, steady on old chap! ;)

Owner of 2 PCPs and 5 springers (2 of which are as accurate as any PCP I've owned, and I've owned Steyr, S400, EV2, FTP900) Not as easy to achieve the potential mind.
 

Kernowlad

Supporter
Supporter
o_O I say, steady on old chap! ;)

Owner of 2 PCPs and 5 springers (2 of which are as accurate as any PCP I've owned, and I've owned Steyr, S400, EV2, FTP900) Not as easy to achieve the potential mind.
Okay maybe a bit off then but generally PCPs are more accurate in the majority of hands.
 

dvd8n

Supporter
Supporter
AIUK Saviour
As an NFAS club, we would still have to run conversion courses for archers that have completed an AGB beginners course, though these are only two sessions of two hours each, just to make sure that they understand the different rules and procedures. We of course check that they are safe shooting in a woodland environment and understand the different discipline and safety needs. However we are in a very rural area, and AGB clubs are a bit thin on the ground with only three in the entire large county, though I do belong to one as well where I shoot barebow and longbow.
Yes, our field club really only does conversion courses too, although that sounds more grandiose than it is in reality - it's really just going out with them the first few times with the new guys, giving them pointers for field shooting and making sure that they're safe.

The club has neither the beginner's kit nor the coaches to do beginners from scratch. Plus all the active members are busy doing committee work or course maintenance or both.

Mind you, on my first induction session into the field club I got way more and much better barebow instruction than I ever got at the AGB target club.
 

cave dweller

New member
Well, I'm going to stick my head up here for a moment and see if it gets shot off.

I absolutely agree that attempting to "do" archery in the UK is a terrible experience. Most people don't want the hassles. They just want to fling a few arrows and have some fun. The problems I've found are all the same things mentioned here, all the busybodies that say "NO! That's not how you do it!" and all the ludicrous rules and regulations associated with it. You can't just simply take a bow and some arrows out somewhere and have a good time because it's blatantly illegal EVERYWHERE and the clubs often do their best to kill the fun of it and charge you for it at the same time.

I often resort to (gasp! horror!) "bending the rules" to enjoy my bow time. For instance there's like a zillion miles of flat sand around here when the tide's out and I might go way out on the sands for a bit of archery fun. Technically that's so illegal I could be shot on sight by a police armed response unit even though I can literally see in all directions for miles and there's nobody else around. Still it's completely illegal, but I do it because FFS I 'm not harming anything or bothering anybody whatsoever.

I also sometimes sneak out into the woodlands for a nice stroll across country, and sometimes I might accidentally bring along my take down bow and some arrows and accidentally assemble it out in the middle of nowhere and let a few pointy sticks off when there's nobody within ten miles of me. I've even been known to take my bow camping. Oh the horror! What manner of criminally insane being am I? Do I not realize that a bunch of blind nuns and wild orphans could suddenly leap out of the bushes right in front of my hurtling arrows at any moment? Shooting ARROWS out in the OPEN without an obnoxious attendant standing nearby telling me that I'm doing it all wrong? I am clearly a monster of the worst degree if I resort to such skullduggery.

But at least when I do things like that I don't have some surly bloke with an expensive Olympic quality bow standing next to me being sniffy because my cheap Chinese bow cost less than a hundred quid and I can still thwack a target with my two-fletched homemade bamboo arrows better than he can with his fifty quid apiece rocket science arrows.
 

little-else

Supporter
Supporter
AIUK Saviour
A lot of what gets AGB and others knickers in a twist is image.
they wnat to be seen as being upright and sensible and dont want to associate with anything that could tarnish that image so will be the first to point out any wrongfulness in case someone else spots it and then they get tarnished by association. that is how the govy managedf to ban firts self-loading rifles and then pistols. they had a licancing system that by and large worked but when 2 police constabularies failed to ally the rules as they stood it allowed nutters to run amok so rather than put the CC of most of Scotland on trial blame everyone else and ban things to shut the public up ans stop them from asking what really went wrong. Our national associations said nothing in public, they claim digified silence and they were working quietly behind the scemes but the NRA efforts on the SLR issue was trying to allow a peer of the realm with ony one arm to be allowed to continue deer stalking with his SLR rather than consider the whole reason for teh NRA's existence, training for the defence of the realm. they gave that up years ago so they could buy posher and more expensive target rifles than us mere plebs so they could enjoy a material advantage and higher scores but lost the support of the military as they were no longer relevant.

AGB are disassociated from most club archers who shoot target recurve, let alone any other bow style or practice.
As for seaking out into the woodlands, you would be surprised how many landowners would allow you to cuck a few feathery sticks about if you did but ask. They will imagine all sorts of malevolence if you just sneak about so be bold, pitch your hobby to them and you stand a good chance of a yes. TBH you really only need one to say yes and you are set so even if a dozen say no you will have somewhere to go
 

KidCurry

Well-known member
As for seaking out into the woodlands, you would be surprised how many landowners would allow you to cuck a few feathery sticks about if you did but ask. They will imagine all sorts of malevolence if you just sneak about so be bold, pitch your hobby to them and you stand a good chance of a yes. TBH you really only need one to say yes and you are set so even if a dozen say no you will have somewhere to go
We lost our ground to developers three years ago. We went to everyone who had any land/space within about 10 miles over a period of 9 months. Not one person was willing to have an archery club, established for 40 years with national championship titles, on their land. The biggest issue in the south/southeast is everyone with land is holding out for development.
 

Kernowlad

Supporter
Supporter
We lost our ground to developers three years ago. We went to everyone who had any land/space within about 10 miles over a period of 9 months. Not one person was willing to have an archery club, established for 40 years with national championship titles, on their land. The biggest issue in the south/southeast is everyone with land is holding out for development.
Our nation has a very unhealthy obsession with land ownership and property development. It’s very damaging.
 

Geophys2

Member
We lost our ground to developers three years ago. We went to everyone who had any land/space within about 10 miles over a period of 9 months. Not one person was willing to have an archery club, established for 40 years with national championship titles, on their land. The biggest issue in the south/southeast is everyone with land is holding out for development.
I remember that KidCurry, we were also looking for a new site in the same area as well, we were after a slightly bigger field than our school site, but had to give up as any large flat field as you said was earmarked for development. Only shared sports sites were available and the school site seemed to be the best option so we stayed there.
 

Whitehart

Well-known member
Our nation has a very unhealthy obsession with land ownership and property development. It’s very damaging.
Yeah it goes back to the start of time, then though you did not buy it you got rid of the previous owner or a king gave it to you. In my past I am convinced I have had land taken from my ancestors by William 1 thinking of suing for compensation it seems the trend these days :)
 

Kernowlad

Supporter
Supporter
On a similar theme our Coastguard station is being sold to green eyed second home developers. We’re seriously struggling to find anywhere else.
But who needs the emergency services when some greedy sell out wants to make a few more quid?
The current version of capitalism is broken.

I have a 55 yard field if anyone ever wants to shoot in Cornwall. It’s land as “prime” as you can get but I will revel in NOT developing it and just using it for camping and shooting.
And our house we rent out? It was empty for ten years, we did it up way above the required standard, we have had a happy LOCAL family in it for three years paying minimum rent and will only sell it to locals despite many selling out and flogging to the highest second home bidder.

It’s only a little but it helps.
 
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Whitehart

Well-known member
On a similar theme our Coastguard station is being sold to green eyes second home developers. We’re seriously struggling to find anywhere else.
But who needs the emergency services when sone greedy sell out wants to make a few more quid?
Perhaps you need to look further inland being on the coast is not a necessity is it? :)
 

little-else

Supporter
Supporter
AIUK Saviour
Sorry, my experience of asking people for the casual use of their land was mainly in Northamptonshire where permission was given for plodding about on a couple of great estates and a number of farms.
Land banking around London and also in more rural areas where Lunnoners have holiday cottages is problematical I agree but no harm in asking. Finding a permanent site for a club wasnt what I had in mind when making the comment, more occasional roving clout type shoots
 

Kernowlad

Supporter
Supporter
I’ve been doing a bit of number crunching on the stopping power of an arrow vs a pellet and the results are quite interesting.
My pellets leave the muzzle at about 750-790fps with a maximum power of 11.6ft-lbs.
I put some numbers through a calculator that also had numbers for the required power to down various game; under 25 and it’s just really small stuff. My son’s little Ruckus with his arrows results in power to down a small deer. However mine, even with my lightest arrows (Powerflights) is well over the required energy level to take out large game; moose, bears, etc. With my heavy XX75s, it’s over 100ft-lbs! Now this is as they leave the bow; clearly they lose speed and power quickly but in the event of a zombie apocalypse, pack your bow not your air rifle!

BTW I have no intention of hunting anything with the rifle and bow hunting is illegal but it’s good to have something rather than just numbers to compare.
 

malbro

Instinctive Archer
Supporter
With my heavy XX75s, it’s over 100ft-lbs! Now this is as they leave the bow; clearly they lose speed and power quickly but in the event of a zombie apocalypse, pack your bow not your air rifle!
What weight are those arrows that you are using, my heaviest arrows are wooden shafts coming in at 452.2 grains and they leave my bow at 151 ft/s which I work out as 9.75ft.lb/s, my lightest are carbons at 327.2 grains and they leave the bow at 170 ft/s or 7.95 ft.lb/s, that is nearly 116 mph.
I assume you are using a compound bow to get a much higher speed but even that must be around 300ft/s so those must be heavy arrows.

What I find interesting is that the heavier arrows absorb more energy from the bow than the lighter arrows, one experiment I would like to do is find the optimum arrow weight to use with the bow to get the maximum energy transfer.

[Speeds measured on a Caldwell Chronograph].
 
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Kernowlad

Supporter
Supporter
What weight are those arrows that you are using, my heaviest arrows are wooden shafts coming in at 452.2 grains and they leave my bow at 151 ft/s which I work out as 9.75ft.lb/s, my lightest are carbons at 327.2 grains and they leave the bow at 170 ft/s or 7.95 ft.lb/s, that is nearly 116 mph.
I assume you are using a compound bow to get a much higher speed but even that must be around 300ft/s so those must be heavy arrows.

[Speeds measured on a Caldwell Chronograph].
Approx 300fps and my XX75s weigh 30 grams so 462 grains. My Powerflights are a lot lighter; my ACGs a little more at around 360 grains.
 
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malbro

Instinctive Archer
Supporter
Approx 320fps and my XX75s weigh 30 grams so 462 grains. My Powerflights are a lot lighter; my ACGs a little more at around 360 grains.
OK I see how much more energy you are transferring, 105 ft.lb against 22.9ft.lb on my recurve, I was looking at power calcs (ft.lb/s) rather than energy (ft.lb)
 

4d4m

Active member
What weight are those arrows that you are using, my heaviest arrows are wooden shafts coming in at 452.2 grains and they leave my bow at 151 ft/s which I work out as 9.75ft.lb/s, my lightest are carbons at 327.2 grains and they leave the bow at 170 ft/s or 7.95 ft.lb/s, that is nearly 116 mph.
I assume you are using a compound bow to get a much higher speed but even that must be around 300ft/s so those must be heavy arrows.

What I find interesting is that the heavier arrows absorb more energy from the bow than the lighter arrows, one experiment I would like to do is find the optimum arrow weight to use with the bow to get the maximum energy transfer.

[Speeds measured on a Caldwell Chronograph].
Something wrong with your calcs. Kinetic energy of those arrows is just under 23 ft.lbs
 

malbro

Instinctive Archer
Supporter
Something wrong with your calcs. Kinetic energy of those arrows is just under 23 ft.lbs
yes 22.9ft.lbs but I was calculating the power in ft.lb/s (foot pounds per second) not the energy in ft.lbs (foot pounds), the original post was talking about power and I didnt pick up on the missing /.
 
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