Shouldn´t AGB be responsible for all Admin of their client once into their system?

PLEASE HELP TO FUND ARCHERY INTERCHANGE

chrisgas

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Probably been aired before but I just thought I would ask. Basically about the relationship between AGB, collection of fees for their clients and the clubs that have to collect them on AGB´s behalf. Maybe I am missing something.... like a brain?

Once a client of AGB has been signed into "their system" where AGB have received all the membership costs then isn´t the onus on AGB to service their client?

Once their client has entered their system, shouldn´t all administration of that client be their responsibility and not that of any club?

Is it not possible that some form of chipped membership card with photo ID be produced along with a reader that is given to every affiliated club to use. It would be then up to AGB and their client to ensure that membership was up to date? A simple swipe of the card on entry to the "affiliated club" would give the ok to shoot, or not.

Also AGB could collect Region and County fees. This would leave the clubs to just administer the monies that directly effect themselves. After all it seems most clubs don´t appear to see any of this cash once it has passed through their admin, that they have to provide for free it seems.
 

dvd8n

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The issue is that a huge number of members just want to turn up at the club and shoot, not mess about with electronic id. The clubs don't want to scan people every week (or check a card for that matter), and not only that but make sure that a club officer is there to do it. Every. Week.

The simplest administratively, and most equitable, would be for the archer to join at the level that they want/need.

So, if the member just wants to join at club level, they'd join the club. If they wanted to take part in county activities, they'd join the county off their own bat. Regional, they'd join the region. National, AGB. The clubs know who their members are; at county, regional or national events they'd show the appropriate card.

It'd be simplest for all administratively, and fairest for the archers, but it'd scupper the finances of all the levels bar the clubs.
 
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Shirt

Well-known member
The issue is that a huge number of members just want to turn up at the club and shoot, not mess about with electronic id. The clubs don't want to scan people every week, and not only that but make sure that a club officer is there to do it. Every. Week.

The simplest administratively, and most equitable, would be for the archer to join at the level that they want/need.

So, if the member just wants to join at club level, they'd join the club. If they wanted to take part in county activities, they'd join the county of their own bat. Regional, they'd join the region. National, AGB. The clubs know who their members are; at county, regional or national events they'd show the appropriate card.

It'd be simplest for all administratively, and fairest for the archers, but it'd scupper the finances of all the levels bar the clubs.
Possibly one of the most clear and insightful posts I've read on here in a very very long time. :)
 

Spike95609

New member
The problem with devising a new system that applies to all clubs is that they come in all shapes and sizes and some operate in completely different ways to others. A lot can only meet somewhere like a school sports hall a couple of times a week, in which case it would be easy enough for an officer to be there at opening time and check the cards of everyone coming in. Then there's clubs like mine which are fortunate enough to own their own grounds and can use them all day. There are no opening times, theoretically someone could turn up and shoot at 3am if they wanted to. Naturally an officer won't be available to check their card. The technological solution would be to have a swipe card facility on the gate, but that starts creating a whole load of other problems like expense and maintenance of a system which I imagine would be continually breaking down, and besides there's nothing to stop anyone from just climbing over the gate. But ultimately clubs have to be the ones to control this because only they are in a position to be sure who on their grounds has paid their fees, AGB would only see what their database was telling them and wouldn't know that someone was still shooting without insurance.

There could be an argument for counties/regions having their fees collected for them by AGB. I attended a region meeting last year (pre-pandemic - amazing to think that there was such a time!) at which it was said that they were having problems with some Direct members who had paid their fees to AGB and had nominated them as their region but the fees never got paid, and there's nothing they can do about it. Having AGB collect them would solve that problem, but whether the county/region would be happy about surrendering control of their income is another matter.

DVD8N - Yes that would be fair, and it would indeed financially cripple everyone above club level as the overwhelming majority of people who are propping up those institutions would just be club shooters. I think AGB should have some sort of tiered membership structure like they do in other sports, where you pay a small fee to just shoot at your club, and larger ones if you want to do local or national competition. I told this to Neil Armitage when he visited my club, and he mumbled something then started talking about something else.
 

dvd8n

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The problem with devising a new system that applies to all clubs is that they come in all shapes and sizes and some operate in completely different ways to others. A lot can only meet somewhere like a school sports hall a couple of times a week, in which case it would be easy enough for an officer to be there at opening time and check the cards of everyone coming in. Then there's clubs like mine which are fortunate enough to own their own grounds and can use them all day. There are no opening times, theoretically someone could turn up and shoot at 3am if they wanted to. Naturally an officer won't be available to check their card. The technological solution would be to have a swipe card facility on the gate, but that starts creating a whole load of other problems like expense and maintenance of a system which I imagine would be continually breaking down, and besides there's nothing to stop anyone from just climbing over the gate. But ultimately clubs have to be the ones to control this because only they are in a position to be sure who on their grounds has paid their fees, AGB would only see what their database was telling them and wouldn't know that someone was still shooting without insurance.
We shoot in a school in winter and on a rugby pitch in summer; it's not uncommon for an official not to turn up for the first hour. So it'd be an imposition on our committee, or on the archers who presumably wouldn't be able to shoot until a committee member turned up.

And I don't think that technology would help.

"Who's got that #### scanner?"
"Fred had it last."
"But he's in #### Lanzarote!"

There could be an argument for counties/regions having their fees collected for them by AGB. I attended a region meeting last year (pre-pandemic - amazing to think that there was such a time!) at which it was said that they were having problems with some Direct members who had paid their fees to AGB and had nominated them as their region but the fees never got paid, and there's nothing they can do about it. Having AGB collect them would solve that problem, but whether the county/region would be happy about surrendering control of their income is another matter.
Wish I'd thought of that. I really begrudge the money that I pay to West of Scotland - even though it's only a couple of quid.

DVD8N - Yes that would be fair, and it would indeed financially cripple everyone above club level as the overwhelming majority of people who are propping up those institutions would just be club shooters. I think AGB should have some sort of tiered membership structure like they do in other sports, where you pay a small fee to just shoot at your club, and larger ones if you want to do local or national competition. I told this to Neil Armitage when he visited my club, and he mumbled something then started talking about something else.
Yes, it's fair but it'll never happen. I just suggested it to make a point. I think that the tiered thing is more of a possibility but I can't see it happening when AGB's finances are under pressure.
 

dvd8n

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Would it not have been easier just to pro rata from now until September then start again from then, or am I missing something?
I think that it would have been easier and less disruptive for all concerned.

I was keen to put this fuss down to thoughtlessness rather than deviousness on AGB's part when all this blew up but this is the one question that makes me wonder.
 
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Spike95609

New member
Yes, it's fair but it'll never happen. I just suggested it to make a point. I think that the tiered thing is more of a possibility but I can't see it happening when AGB's finances are under pressure.
Agreed. Even when their finances weren't under pressure they wouldn't want to do it because the cost of the higher tiers would be huge. If an ordinary club member paid say £20 and something like 80% of the whole membership opted for that as I can imagine they would, the remaining 20% would have to provide about half of total funds. It would be a bit difficult to claim that they're promoting a competitive sport when it would become extremely expensive for an individual to compete. Of course the real problem is that half of the money we provide to AGB is spent on staff salaries. And apart from the couple of memership people, the others do..... what.... exactly? Very little that will be felt by those who are paying for it.

KidCurry - The database is set so that pro rata can only be offered to new members or those who have lapsed by 18 months. If they're late renewals from last year there's no option other than the 12 month renewal. It's not a major problem for me at the moment as our club has one person who has done that, another who will, and maybe one or two others. I'm not much worried about what madness I'll have to manage this time next year, but it'll become increasingly mad as the years progress.
 

chrisgas

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With regards to problems of a chipped card, I understand the problems of differing circumstances for clubs but this should be able to be catered for.
If AGB have all the details of "their insured clients" on a database, plus the locations of each card swipe at whatever frequency, then they are in a position to inform any club or facility of the current status of the card. If at any time the card is blocked a simple "automated" email can be sent to the affiliated club to inform them of the situation, as a back up to the chip being blocked.

A club or facility can then action a response if required, i.e. flag if a known member or just ignore if lapsed or very infrequent.

AGB could offer a service of informing clubs of their clients who use the club facilities whose membership is due for renewal that month. This however does not mean that the club should have any more dealings with collecting fees etc.

A club just needs to have a system in place where visitors/associate members are checked in and known members cards are swiped on a basis that suits the club.

I don´t see the reason why if I was a member of a classic car club, the club should be responsible for my insurance dealings, they are not my broker, they receive no commission for administration of my insurance premiums etc.

At least this way the burden of admin is reduced for the club.

AGB is the broker in this instance, surely they should accept responsibility for their own clients that use club facilities.
 

dvd8n

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With regards to problems of a chipped card, I understand the problems of differing circumstances for clubs but this should be able to be catered for.
If AGB have all the details of "their insured clients" on a database, plus the locations of each card swipe at whatever frequency, then they are in a position to inform any club or facility of the current status of the card. If at any time the card is blocked a simple "automated" email can be sent to the affiliated club to inform them of the situation, as a back up to the chip being blocked.

A club or facility can then action a response if required, i.e. flag if a known member or just ignore if lapsed or very infrequent.

AGB could offer a service of informing clubs of their clients who use the club facilities whose membership is due for renewal that month. This however does not mean that the club should have any more dealings with collecting fees etc.

A club just needs to have a system in place where visitors/associate members are checked in and known members cards are swiped on a basis that suits the club.

I don´t see the reason why if I was a member of a classic car club, the club should be responsible for my insurance dealings, they are not my broker, they receive no commission for administration of my insurance premiums etc.

At least this way the burden of admin is reduced for the club.

AGB is the broker in this instance, surely they should accept responsibility for their own clients that use club facilities.

I think that you, and AGB, are thinking 'top down' rather than 'bottom up'. If AGB were the be all and end all of archery then this would all be true.

But, the inconvenient truth is that archery clubs are all run by and for the benefit of their members. They are all autonomous entities. They choose to affiliate to AGB, or Stafaa, or NFAS, or NFF, or remain autonomous, at the behest of their members.

A lot of clubs affiliate to AGB because they are pretty much the default, plus they are the gatekeepers to international and Olympic competition. Plus, they save the club the hassle of organising their own insurance. As far as most members are concerned, the insurance is the only benefit they get. But AGB have always maintained that the insurance has clauses in it that nullify the whole thing if an non-AGB member goes anywhere near the shooting line. I don't know if this is really true; but AGB has always been pretty coy about it and insurance companies don't get rich by making payouts.

AGB has set up a scenario that has placed a whole new burden on committee members for making sure that insurance is valid on, in some cases, a daily basis.

At some point a club will say, #### it, the disadvantages of this relationship outweigh the advantages, and affiliate with a different organisation or just go their own way. Insurance isn't that hard to organise and members can always affiliate on an individual basis.

This may be the final straw for some clubs. AGB can't afford to alienate people at the moment.
 

chrisgas

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DVD8n, I agree with what you are saying but if you are affiliating with AGB for the reasons you stated, then why under the current circumstances would you want the additional burden of acting as their unpaid employee with the task of servicing their accounts when this should be done by them.

If you are affiliated elsewhere and don´t have the same unpaid lackey relationship then all is good. I just believe that once a club has introduced the client to AGB "once", then that is it, job done let AGB deal with their client´s status and insurance.
 

dvd8n

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DVD8n, I agree with what you are saying but if you are affiliating with AGB for the reasons you stated, then why under the current circumstances would you want the additional burden of acting as their unpaid employee with the task of servicing their accounts when this should be done by them.

If you are affiliated elsewhere and don´t have the same unpaid lackey relationship then all is good. I just believe that once a club has introduced the client to AGB "once", then that is it, job done let AGB deal with their client´s status and insurance.
I see what you are saying, and to a certain extent I agree. It would simplify a secretary's job if they just had to deal with a member's membership of the club and left each member to deal with AGB autonomously. But that club can't really take it on faith that a member will join AGB and leave AGB to set up an archer's insurance. AGB has always maintained that a non member shooting invalidates all insurance (or have at least been cagey about clarifying the issue). The committee would need to formally make sure that all members are paid up before each session or risk shooting uninsured. Either that or set up 'shadow' records that record all members' standing with AGB.

From there it's a small step for a club to organise their own insurance 'just to be sure'.

And from there it's a small step to a club telling an archer to join AGB only if they're interested.
 
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chrisgas

Supporter
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DvD8n, I understand that with regards to affiliation to AGB, it is "all or nothing", all shooting members of the club are also paid up members of AGB or the club has no insurance cover.

If the club is affiliated, then let AGB produce a membership ID card and introduce a system that keeps the club informed on who is covered and who is not. If a club member lapses their AGB membership, then "they do not shoot on club premises," simple.

The onus "I believe" morally, should be on AGB to tell you who is and who is not insured, via a chipped card and backed up with an automated messaging system.

I also believe that AGB should pay a one off finders fee up front, for each client introduced by the club. This, at the decision of the club could be offered as a discount to the new member or paid into club funds.
 
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dvd8n

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If the club is affiliated, then let AGB produce a membership ID card and introduce a system that keeps the club informed on who is covered and who is not. If a club member lapses their AGB membership, then "they do not shoot on club premises," simple.
It's not really simple though - that's the issue. It sounds as if it ought to be but there are consequences.

What it means is that a committee member is going to have to police all sessions. That's not something that happens at the moment.

At the school where we shoot in winter the first people there set up the targets and start shooting. That can't happen now. There'd need to be a committee member there from the start of the session to the end.

In summer we shoot at a rugby club on pitch 3. We have club nights but in theory anyone in the club can shoot any time the rugby guys aren't using the pitch, which is most of the time. That would have to end or a committee member would need to be there to check cards.

AGB could send messages about lapsed members, chip cards, set in place any number of technical solutions but there'd still need to be a doorman there at the club to check for the member that lapsed last week, hadn't renewed yet and decided to chance his arm anyway. A doorman that's not needed at the moment. A doorman that would have to deal with the inevitable shouting matches that would happen when a member gets in a strop because he's paid his club dues and what's it to with the club that he's a day late renewing with AGB.

At the moment the committee collects AGB and club funds once a year, sends some of it to AGB, and tells those that don't pay that they aren't shooting any more. Yes, the secretary is doing unpaid admin for AGB but in my opinion it's better than being a policeman for them.

Now what AGB could do is reassure the clubs that a lapsed member shooting at a club under false pretences wouldn't invalidate insurance for other members at the club, or the club as a whole. The issue with that is that AGB has always used insurance, and the risk of invalidating it as a lever to make sure that all shooters at a club are members of AGB.
 
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Riceburner

Active member
A membership card with a QR code on it that simply contained a token ID (a unique randomized number), which, when applied to a web-address would identify the archer would be far simpler and cheaper than a chipped card. It totally negates the need for a specific card reader - all you need is an internet enabled smart phone (carried by 99% of people these days), and a web-address (set up by whomever) and any generic 'Reader' app (there's lots).

eg QR code image contains "https://the.web.address.com/check_a..._token=87623457629346592463598276349562956283". The webpage at 'the.web.address.com/check_archer_status/ reads the token, converts it internally to the required details about the archer, and shows that information on the phone screen. Easy.
 

bimble

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if only there was something like an expiry date printed on the card so people knew when that membership expired... alongside with an online membership portal. Kinda like what we already have.
 

dvd8n

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if only there was something like an expiry date printed on the card so people knew when that membership expired... alongside with an online membership portal. Kinda like what we already have.
The one that we have at the moment already has a QR code on too ;)
 

Kernowlad

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I think the whole business of insurance and archery bodies is kept very vague on purpose. My unpleasant experience a while back led to me digging a little and things like “if one uninsured person shoots, no one is insured” thing just didn’t run true.
 

little-else

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Why does anyone need a fancy system to determine who is a current member if you have a card? That should be enough. use it to check how often you shoot and where? No thanks, not anyone's business.
As for the insurance aspect, that seems to be trotted out by a lot of people to justify the existence of AGB and its current structure when neither shoudl be related to insurance of a club's activities.
Kernowlad is right, in that respect, like religious mystery it keeps the masses in line because they never know the full story.
I have oft questioned why county, regions etc need to take a slice of our membership when we join a club. In some other sports you dont need to sign up to anything as an uindividual and you just lose out on voting rights, your club pays its affiliations based on number of members and you get the benefits of belonging to a large organisation but only those who pay individual subs get to have a say.
Would you agree to a regime where you have to shoot a particular bow a certain number of times a year? it could be monitored by the QR code card but that is akin to licensing every bow. you would then need a serial number and you can bet your bottom dollar the govt would create laws that give them the right tio enforce this new "convenience"
There of course would be a cost to all of this so AGB subs of around £110 a year ( based on HO data for firearms certs) on top of increased cost to your actual club in setting up an maintaining the spyware.
 
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