Stance

kpjthomas

New member
Let's talk about stance. I am currently reading Archery by USA Archery, which states that an open stance is preferred. What I would like to know is why.

The book also states that your weight /pressure should be moreso on the balls of your feet. I always thought it should be evenly distributed as to root yourself to the ground. It is not like we archers are going to take off running. We want to be strong and steady.

So....why open stance and why weight towards balls of feet? Or...why not. :)

Please and thanks.

Kelli 🎯
 

potnoodle

New member
As I understand it there are two real reasons for the open stance. One is that it adds a little stability to the shot in a crosswind - you are more steady on your feet on a windy day compared with the "standard" stance.
The other is a little more complex. Essentially it encourages your hips to remain in line with the feet, and not pointing directly at the target. This in turn means that to achieve proper alignment of the shoulders you have to rotate just below the chest. The thinking is that this restricts some of the movement available in the trunk to the archer at full draw, but also allows them to "feel" the use of back tension in a more pronounced way. I think the idea behind this is that the archer feels a more solid and repeatable position at full draw and is more confident in the shot. Try it for yourself - use an open stance but keep those hips in line with your feet, it's certainly a different feeling to anything you'll have had before.

I think weight one the balls of your feet stems from the open stance idea. If one foot is behind the other then for your centre of gravity to remain somewhere between those two points of contact with the ground you need to move your weight a little forward onto the balls of your feet. I think it makes a shot feel a little more aggressive too.
 

geoffretired

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The feet should make a four point contact with the ground, heels and balls contacts. There is a tendency in some beginners to stand upright like the soldier, with chest out and the back arched, that isn't good for two reasons. It lifts the chest up and into the string line and it takes more effort. Better to have the spine straighter with the chest down( not stooped though). That posture tends to bring the weight onto balls as well as heels compared to the soldier posture.
As for open stance, I think the feet are open and out of line with the target, as are the hips, but that will require the chest to be swung round to get the shoulders into line. The outcome is that the spine has to be twisted, which adds stability. It's perhaps like twisting a cord, it can make it stiffer.
 

joetapley

New member
An object is stable if the (vertical) center of mass (COM) lies within the support base. The larger the support the base and the closer the COM is to the center of the support base than the larger the stable regime becomes. e.g. a matchbox stood on end is stable because the COM is vertically within the rectangular base. If you tilt the matchbox then as long as the COM is within the rectangle the matchbox is stable and the box will tilt back to normal. If the COM goes outside the base rectangle then it will fall over.

The classic square stance has the feet parallel and wide apart and aligned at 90 deg to the target. This results in a rectangular support base with the long side pointing at the target. The long side is as large as possible allowing for the resultant leg stress (mainly the knees) and is generally around shoulder width. The short side length is determined by the size of the feet :). You want the archer COM to be in the center of the base rectangle so the archer stands up straight and the foot pressure distribution such that the COM is around on a line between the insteps. Most of the (destabilising) forces on the archer from shooting the bow are along the line to the target so you want the long side of the support base pointing at the target.

The one limitation of the square stance is when you have a cross wind. This generates (destabilising) forces in line with the short (feet) side of the support base. To offset this the feet are often moved into the "open" stance which is sort of like rotating the rectangular support base to increase the length of the base in the shooting line direction at the expense of decreasing the length of the base in line to the target. You can operate on the basis that the stronger the crosswind the more open the stance. In practice the feet are no longer parallel so the base is no longer a rectangle.

Whatever the foot position the arm/shoulder alignment ends up the same so the stance will have an impact on how the archer gets into this alignment.
 

Timid Toad

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You must also bear in mind how flexible you are. In the past I have used a very open stance but as I have got older I found the stresses on the joints, particularly hips and knees to be too much and have reverted to a square stance which is more comfortable and repeatable shot by shot for me.
I would definitely recommend trying an open stance and if it works for you that is great, but don't discount the square stance if it works for you.
 

Rik

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Second that. The first thing to do when considering an open stance is to see how much twist you can achieve in the top part of your body without moving your hips.
In my case it's only 10-15 degrees. So a 45 degree open stance is contraindicated :)

There's a seldom practised variation on the square stance, which is intended to add stability; moving your feet out of line with each other. One foot a bit forward, one a bit back. It should improve the sideways stability of the stance in poor conditions.

The balls of the feet thing is to do with balance. You're placing your COM over the front part of your feet to help you get in line for the draw. If you have the position right, your shoulders will be over the balls of your feet, rather than your heels.
Shoulders/chest forwards over the balls of the feet. Bottom tucked in (no arching, as someone said previously). Shoulder blades flat. Arms hanging loose. That's the starting position.
 
D

Deleted member 7654

Guest
Just my opinion of course....
There has been some sensible stuff written...
BUT the cross wind thing is nonsensical!!
The wind is just as likely to be exactly at 90 degrees to a line drawn joining the heels of your feet if your stance is square or open by a few degrees or closed by a few degrees! The wind will probably be veering and backing by more than that anyway!
So the only way to make your stance more stable in relation to a wind is to position yourself according to it's direction!
The wind does not respect the layout of the shooting line!

I'd say the secret to a strong stable stance is pretty much the same as in any sport. If in doubt, get some one to push you from a variety of directions feel it rather than thinking about it.
Del
 

Timid Toad

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IIRC in the 2008 Olympics, the US team had footwear designed solely (HA!) for them which had a slight heel so pushing the weight onto the balls of the feet. Other teams stayed with the Adidas supplied trainers. I forgot to look at the 2012 Games.
 

joetapley

New member
IIRC in the 2008 Olympics, the US team had footwear designed solely (HA!) for them which had a slight heel so pushing the weight onto the balls of the feet. Other teams stayed with the Adidas supplied trainers. I forgot to look at the 2012 Games.

The effect of lateral or medial wedges on control of postural sway in standing


PS if say you've ever seen say a plane in flight you will know that the direction of the (drag) force is generally not the same as the wind direction. The wind drag force direction on an archer is determined by the alignment of the archer not by the direction of the wind.
 

Tuck

New member

The effect of lateral or medial wedges on control of postural sway in standing


PS if say you've ever seen say a plane in flight you will know that the direction of the (drag) force is generally not the same as the wind direction. The wind drag force direction on an archer is determined by the alignment of the archer not by the direction of the wind.
Agree JT
Greatest force on largest area, back/front not side, and depends on angle for proportion transmitted, 90deg greatest for any wind speed.



Eat, Drink, Shoot, Enjoy.
 

kpjthomas

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Thanks everyone. Great stuff here. Haven't thought much about shooting outside because we haven't done so yet. I am sure it will come up though as my daughter has olympic dreams. :)

Kelli 🎯
 

Emmadragon

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I know that this is a fairly old thread, but I have a question...
So, my shoulders are not perfectly aligned - my right shoulder is higher, shorter and slightly further forward than my left shoulder (it's a family trait, my mother and her mother have the same thing to greater or lesser degrees).
As a result, in order to shoot straight at the target, I have to stand with my left foot slightly further forward than my right foot. In practice, I generally get both feet set parallel to the shooting line, and then draw my right foot back around half a foot length.
Is this what is called a closed stance? I understand that I then have to rotate my upper body further than someone in a more parallel stance, but that's not a problem for me.

Emma
 

geoffretired

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Yes, closed stance puts your feet in a position that would otherwise cause you to face back from the shooting line. Open stance would put you in a position that would naturally cause you to face in front of the shooting line.
Do you really need to stand with your feet in that position? Could you not stand with feet side by side, let's say, and turn your upper body a little bit away from the target to get the shoulders aligned as you want them? It would require less of a turn.
I am not suggesting you are doing anything wrong; I am just wondering if you have considered other ways to reach the same upper body alignment.
 

Emmadragon

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Oh, that is very helpful, thank you Aslan. It also reiterates what my coach is telling me right now, good to know that they agree. We did have a big debate about the whole closed stance thing, and I had to demonstrate what happens when I shoot from an 'open' or 'neutral' stance (frankly, I'm lucky if the arrows hit the straw at all then!). She conceded that I do need to stand the way I do.
 

4d4m

Active member
Whatever works for you is right. There's a tendency towards dogma in archery (as with many sports), "that is wrong, this is right". There are some basic biomechanical principles such as using the big back muscles rather than rely on the arms, but everyone in the world is a slightly different shape and size with greater or less flexibility in different joints.
 

Emmadragon

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Hi Geoff, I have tried twisting in the way you suggest, and find that puts much more strain on my shoulders, since that puts me in a more 'active' twist. I also find it's harder to be consistent in the amount of twist that way - it relies more on twisting the shoulders to the same degree each time, whereas if I put my feet hip width apart and half a foot length different in their, um, not sure what to call it, length(?), then I can plant my hips above my feet and my shoulders square above them. My club coach (not my present coach) came to the conclusion that I needed to do it when I was complaining to her that all my arrows went left all the time, no matter what I did, and she had me raise both arms to shoulder level straight out. Then we both realised that my torso is a bit 'slosh' and not quite lined up. Since I started shooting with that slight closure (and it is only slight, my feet aren't very big), my placement has improved considerably.
But I do really appreciate the suggestion.
Emma.
 

geoffretired

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Hi Emmadragon,
My suggestion was really just in case you had not tried anything else and might be using "your" way as you felt there were no alternatives.
I am glad you are doing what is best for you; and that your way is understood by the people around you. Enjoy the shooting.
 

Emmadragon

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Oh, that's fantastic. That is EXACTLY what I do. Even to the pivoting to properly align with the direct line to the centre of the target. Thank you so much!
 
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