Struggling after four years out of archery.

geoffretired

Supporter
Supporter
Four or five years ago, I was forced out of archery for various reasons. Previously I had been shooting regularly and my scores were OK though never as good as I really wanted. Portsmouths were 560+ but always seemed a struggle.
A year ago I was able to return to some shooting but at lower draw weight. I put longer cables on my compound to reduce draw weight from about 50 lb down to 36 ish.
I have kept my same arrows. 3-39 ACC and 500 FMJ.
On the occasions when I get to shoot, my groups are rubbish. At 60y I can get a couple in each colour out to blue. Struggle to get 252!!
I don't feel my form has changed that much, but I would accept that it may have got worse.
One thing I have wondered about recently, is the arrows. They are clearly too stiff having dropped nearly 15lbs. But can I rule them out as a cause for the big groups?
Do over stiff arrows damage scores that much?
Also, I remember being told that bows like to be shot close to their max draw weight when possible. Mine is clearly well below that at the moment. Could that be part of the problem?
I have worked on my form for the last year or so and seem to be getting nowhere.
 


Timid Toad

Moderator
Staff member
Supporter
Fonz Awardee
Ironman
Yes, and yes. You've altered your bow way out of spec so it might give you a specific poundage but who knows what the dfc looks like. You wouldn't recommend any other archer shoot arrows that far out of spine, so perhaps your own advice would work for you too!
Sounds like you might want to look for a nice second hand bow built in the poundage you are looking for and pick up some new arrows in the appropriate spine.
 


geoffretired

Supporter
Supporter
Hi TT. Thanks for the advice. I have run through the idea of a second hand bow, as you suggest.
You are correct; I would not recommend arrows that far out, to other archers. But, that would be to give them a known match, as it were, so I couldn't be accused of advising them badly.. I have no real evidence that my arrows are the reason for the big groups. They are a long way from recommended.... but I thought compounds were quite tolerant. It would be great if all I needed was a few spines weaker. I suppose I could try weaker arrows on this set up and then change the bow if they didn't bring better results.
Does that sound reasonable?
Cheers once again.
 


Timid Toad

Moderator
Staff member
Supporter
Fonz Awardee
Ironman
"Quite tolerant" could be one spine either way. Think you're well outside that. And yes, a wildly flailing arrow will have erratic flight and give erratic groups. You could get more appropriate arrows for your current bow, but my concern is your current bow is so far out of spec it might be hard to judge what *are* the right arrows for it.
 


Timid Toad

Moderator
Staff member
Supporter
Fonz Awardee
Ironman
I'd also guess that putting much longer cables on the bow will alter the brace height and alter the preload on the limbs at the point the arrow is leaving. This could be messing with your arrow flight.
 


KidCurry

Active member
F I put longer cables on my compound to reduce draw weight from about 50 lb down to 36 ish.
I have kept my same arrows. 3-39 ACC and 500 FMJ.
I would say that if the bow was 40-50 and you came down to 36 you are probably fine. If your bow was 50-60 wound down to 36 you are probably in uncharted waters. That said you can't have too stiff arrows on a compound. They will just be pointlessly heavy. If you are drawing peak 36 I can only guess how little your holding weight is! You might be better off binning the release aid and using a girls hair clip.
But seriously, how hard are you pulling into the stops with that let-off?
 


geoffretired

Supporter
Supporter
Hi TT, Thanks again. I think the bh is about the same. The bow is near parallel limbs so the longer cables allow the limbs to unbend a bit, but the axles move apart almost parallel to the original string line.
Hi KidCurry. Thanks for your help.
The bow was 60-50 wound down so 36 is well out from normal. Having said that, the cams do rotate at full draw to the same position they had originally. The let off certainly feels the same( if lighter) as the cams roll over at the same distance from full draw and using the same part of the profile on the cams. I would guess 75% let off from 36 lb..... 9 lb. I am pulling against the stops deliberately so I would estimate 12lb.
It's a Hoyt Carbon Matrix 2011.
 


chuffalump

Member
Can you lengthen the cables without affecting the rest position of the cams? Or did you change the string length too, to bring the brace height cam orientation position back to normal?
 


geoffretired

Supporter
Supporter
Hi Chuffalump,
I first changed cable lengths only and when that was done, I drew the bow to see if all felt correct. It felt like normal but easier to draw, obviously.
The draw length was so similar I had no need to change anything to correct that. I did expect to need a longer string, as I anticipated the limb tips being wider apart having less bend put into them by the cables. I gather from that, the limb tips had moved apart by a small amount. I have just checked that now and find the movement is less than 5mm.
ATA is almost on spec, less than 2mm difference. Brace height has not changed as the limbs are parallel and the cam at the position is rotating on a constant radius where the bow string is contacting the groove.
The only obvious difference apart from draw weight is the cam's rotation at bh. So on drawing and power stroke the little bit at the start of the draw, or the end off the power stroke. doesn't get used. So I estimate I am using almost all of the normal cam rotation and nothing that wasn't intended to be used by the makers.
 


chuffalump

Member
Ahh. I wondered if the cam rest position was different, meaning the arrow/string separation point was disturbed. If it gets a bit floppy here, could it cause random arrow flight disturbances? I suppose you'd notice if there was a lot of fishtailing/porpoising.

EDIT Just realised that this is pretty much what TT said.
 


geoffretired

Supporter
Supporter
I suppose that lowering draw weight could make the string go loose at bh, though it is tight enough when I try to move it. At the end of the power stroke though, the bow is further"back" on the draw force curve; it hasn't dropped so far down the initial "wall " stage.
It would be a little bit comforting, if it turns out the changes I made to the bow are causing my poor groups. I could be content then to have learned what has happened that I hadn't thought about. ( If I do this; THIS goes wrong)
It seems it is what I do with the bow when I shoot it, rather than what I did with it when I changed the cables.
 


chuffalump

Member
Well, if practise improves your groups then it's you. Or if someone else can shoot good groups with your bow....

The expensive diagnostic solution is to buy and fit some weaker limbs then return the string and cables to original spec. I suspect Bowtech will be pricey?
 


geoffretired

Supporter
Supporter
What brought me to posting this thread was being unable to shoot any better now than two years ago. My shooting seemed to have hit a wall and I was getting nowhere.
After working on various form possibilities, nothing changed. I eventually wondered if the mis match in arrows or the changes to the cables could be responsible.( or partly)
After the responses on here, I can't see how my changes would have caused the damage. It has been good to discuss these matters, so I thank all who contributed.
I was able to get out and shoot this afternoon and did notice two things that I feel are worth noting.
I was looking away a bit too soon when I started; then managed to keep my focus on the gold for much longer once I realised. That has to be a good change.
The other thing I noticed was that during the follow through, I felt decidedly " ragged". I can't really think of a better word.
It was a bit like hitting a tennis ball with the frame of the racquet; or knocking a nail into a post that was loose. It did not feel, good or as it used to.
 


geoffretired

Supporter
Supporter
Heehee, yes indeed. It adds interest I feel. It gets tedious when I don't know what it is that needs to be discovered!!
Having a problem isn't so bad; it's having no way to put it right because the cause is unknown.
 


Kernowlad

Member
I always see ?practise practise? comments but my best shoots have been after a bit of a break.
Slightly weird and probably doesn?t work at the upper echelons of archery but I just don?t worry about not shooting enough.

Same with rifle shooting.
 


geoffretired

Supporter
Supporter
I don't mind a bit of practise practise. I can go in the garage for short spell any day. The problem I am facing at present is not knowing exactly what aspect to focus on.
It's like having a computer fault with no idea why it happens; compared to knowing the wireless mouse needs a new battery.
 


Kernowlad

Member
Well archery is largely about challenges and you have two; find what the issue is, work on it.

Sounds like a tricky one though.
 


Timid Toad

Moderator
Staff member
Supporter
Fonz Awardee
Ironman
I don't mind a bit of practise practise. I can go in the garage for short spell any day. The problem I am facing at present is not knowing exactly what aspect to focus on.
It's like having a computer fault with no idea why it happens; compared to knowing the wireless mouse needs a new battery.
Can you get someone to film you - on their phone will do to start with - and then you can see for yourself what's going on? If you can rule out the organic part of your archery you could then maybe do some fun high-speed stuff of your bow, release and arrows doing their thing, but first off look at the archer.
 


KidCurry

Active member
My gut feeling is that if the bow looks right it is right. If the cams roll over correctly and timing is fine, it may not be as efficient as it used to be but it is probably okay. I would go back to stage 1... bow setup. Check everything as you would for your students. As an archer that has shot for years it can be easy to focus on a specific detail and forget the basics. This done, modified french tune. When was the last time you did this? Then through paper to look if you have contact or serious torque issues. At 12lb holding it will be easy to torque the crap out of the shot but this will show up through paper.
Then isolate each element of your form. Start at the back or front and work through each element, one at a time. Video, review, eliminate/correct, move on. Although as I said before you cannot have too stiff an arrow for compound the unnecessary weight might be an issue for a light draw bow. I would probably buy 3 C1s at the correct spine to eliminate this.
 


Top