No, it is moving. It just passes through a neutral point. That isn't the same thing.
*sorry, edited my typo
*sorry, edited my typo
Last edited:
The point where the arrow leaves the string?
- Thread starter geoffretired
- Start date
I don't understand that.
Stretch
Well-known member
Take the blue pill.
Or plot the shaft position a millisecond before and a millisecond after. See? It was always moving - you just have a notion of it being static because you’ve picked a moment in time. You’re thinking of a photo when it is a video.
There is no arrow.
Stretch
Or plot the shaft position a millisecond before and a millisecond after. See? It was always moving - you just have a notion of it being static because you’ve picked a moment in time. You’re thinking of a photo when it is a video.
There is no arrow.
Stretch
John blund
New member
I don't get this at all. If you get a satisfying answer to your question, what are you going to do with the information? How is it going to help you in any way? Why don't you just use the arrow manufactors spine chart, tune your arrows, shoot and be happy? Who cares how the tip bends compared to the back when it leaves the string as long as it flies good and you hit the target. Maybe I have misunderstood your question completely, but it seems to me you are overcomplicating things.
Why do I want to know the answer?Because I am inquisitive. My shooting days are almost over, apart from few shots in the garage for sheer enjoyment!
Stretch I understand that the arrow is always moving. But at some point the movement to one side reduces to zero and the movement reverses.
Stretch I understand that the arrow is always moving. But at some point the movement to one side reduces to zero and the movement reverses.
But has it changed direction, by the time it's left the nock?
Hi Thorvald... will look into that thanks.
TT the nock separates from the string at some point, yes? If that happens at or close to the point where the direction reverses means the arrow shaft is moving very slowly to one side or the other, or not at all. Close to being still would be better than leaving midway between the extremes where the movement to the side is fastest.
TT the nock separates from the string at some point, yes? If that happens at or close to the point where the direction reverses means the arrow shaft is moving very slowly to one side or the other, or not at all. Close to being still would be better than leaving midway between the extremes where the movement to the side is fastest.
I don't believe that actually happens. I think the arrow leaves before the full bending is completed.
If it does, where do you factor in the length of the power stroke? Button function? It's not just spine and loose and paradox at play here?
If it does, where do you factor in the length of the power stroke? Button function? It's not just spine and loose and paradox at play here?
Hi TT thanks again for your comments. I can imagine the arrow leaving the string just before full bend is completed. That isn't too far away from the point where full bend is completed,yes?
I think length of power stroke( including adjusting brace height) and draw weight are ways of adjusting the length of time the arrow is on the string. We can change point weights which also changes the length of time the arrow is on the string. Lighter strings, less serving, all speed up the power sroke changing the time the arrow is on the string.
What I am thinking about is that these changes make the matching better or worse. The changes alter the position of the shaft in its swinging/ flexing movement at that point of separation..
But my question is just about what position the arrow is in at the point where it separates when we get a good match.
Just imagine that by some accident, we ended up with a good set of bareshaft and fletched arrows on our first shots with new arrows. By raising or lowering the draw weight, we would make matters worse. As the arrows separate from the string they will have changed from how they were when the match was good. The arrows would be in a different part of their flex and wave cycle. Go back to the initial draw weight and the results go back to those good ones. I believe that the arrow is very close to maximum flex; but put another way; the arrow. is at the slowest stage of its side to side movement. Very little or perhaps no noticeable side to side wavering.
I think length of power stroke( including adjusting brace height) and draw weight are ways of adjusting the length of time the arrow is on the string. We can change point weights which also changes the length of time the arrow is on the string. Lighter strings, less serving, all speed up the power sroke changing the time the arrow is on the string.
What I am thinking about is that these changes make the matching better or worse. The changes alter the position of the shaft in its swinging/ flexing movement at that point of separation..
But my question is just about what position the arrow is in at the point where it separates when we get a good match.
Just imagine that by some accident, we ended up with a good set of bareshaft and fletched arrows on our first shots with new arrows. By raising or lowering the draw weight, we would make matters worse. As the arrows separate from the string they will have changed from how they were when the match was good. The arrows would be in a different part of their flex and wave cycle. Go back to the initial draw weight and the results go back to those good ones. I believe that the arrow is very close to maximum flex; but put another way; the arrow. is at the slowest stage of its side to side movement. Very little or perhaps no noticeable side to side wavering.
Stretch
Well-known member
The movement isn’t zero. The movement is a result of the energy that was put into the arrow. If the movement is ever zero then you must have damped it out, which means there is nothing left to restart the movement. You agree it still has the retained energy so it must still be moving - It just passes through an aligned point in its movement.
If what you say is true then when the arrow gets to its most flexed state each way then the arrow also stops moving sideways at that point as well (x2). But it hasn’t, if you take a photograph of a moving car it also appears stationary.
Stretch
Stretch
Well-known member
To me this sounds like a description of node theory. The position of the point and nock is unimportant as long at the front node and rear node are flying the same path.
I think Jake Kaminski did a video on this one but I don’t recall if it is one of the better ones… I’m sure there are other similar threads back in the day when everyone worried about their nodes a lot… I recall it actually making it into the Easton tuning guide.
Hi Stretch. I remember nodes making an impact on arrow lengths. Some said thefront node should be at the button when at full draw, so extra long shafts were adopted ... for a while.!!
Stretch I don't think nodes come into this as the shaft isn't free to move as it is after release. During flight we can see the nodes in slow motion video. While on the string, slow motion shows a more complex flexing and waving side to side.
Stretch
Well-known member
Arrow nodes are established in the initial loading of the arrow by the string. Pretty sure that is in the Easton Technical bulletin. The bend is created by the fingers and by the back end of the arrow being accelerated at the front end. The nodes are there right from the beginning of the cycle. The string is not moving in a straight line. Pretty clear in the Beiter slow mo video on youTube.
Beiter Slow Mo
Stretch
Beiter Slow Mo
Stretch
You can't see nodes in the video. All you see is the arrow bending. The string is not moving in a straight line as I mentioned earlie;.that restricts the shaft's movement at the rear but the front is free to move side to side because of the flexing. If it didn't bend, the front would still move to one side or the other because the force from the string is not straight down the central axis of the shaft.
Stretch
Well-known member
All you see is the arrow bending…. Er yes… Er that is what creates the nodes, the bending action combined with the material properties of the arrow. There is no magic node fairy sitting on your clicker dusting the arrow with fairy node dust.
I also disagree, I think you can see the node pattern forming in the shaft, unfortunately the camera is not head on so it is harder to see. There is a point maybe 3” up and maybe 4” from the back that are tracking each other (if you take into account that the arrow is moving to the viewers left).
The back of the arrow moves side to side because of the string movement - not the other way around. In a compound with release it doesn’t do this. The only reason the string doesn’t go down the centre is because we offset the plunger to compensate for the lateral issues of finger release. Again we don’t with compound. (Mind you with super stiff limbs more people are setting up through the line).
I will shut up now and just beg to differ
Stretch
I also disagree, I think you can see the node pattern forming in the shaft, unfortunately the camera is not head on so it is harder to see. There is a point maybe 3” up and maybe 4” from the back that are tracking each other (if you take into account that the arrow is moving to the viewers left).
The back of the arrow moves side to side because of the string movement - not the other way around. In a compound with release it doesn’t do this. The only reason the string doesn’t go down the centre is because we offset the plunger to compensate for the lateral issues of finger release. Again we don’t with compound. (Mind you with super stiff limbs more people are setting up through the line).
I will shut up now and just beg to differ
Stretch
NO. Nodes are points along the flexing shaft that appear to stay in the same place,not left to right as the rest of the shaft does. In order to see them, the shaft needs to flex several times within view of the observer, and at a rate that the eyes can see.
Yes, the string moves left to right and takes the shaft at the back with it. BUT because the two are not wanting to move side to side at the same rate, each is restricting the other to some extent.
Yes, the string moves left to right and takes the shaft at the back with it. BUT because the two are not wanting to move side to side at the same rate, each is restricting the other to some extent.
Hi Geoff I think I understand your question, apart from your own curiosity I cannot see how us club archers can benefit from the answer and if it really matters (people spend far too much time fiddling compared to shooting practice the bow is a machine and do as it is told arrow after arrow) maybe by default we have found the optimum position without knowing why or how you cost effectively record/repeat it. Even at AGB with all their slow motion cameras 3000fps plus, they use them to ensure good arrow clearance but the focus is not where the arrow nock is at the time it leaves the string. I would hazard a guess that the quietest point and most efficient achieved by adjusting the bracing height would be close to the arrow nock leaving the string near the Centre of the bow (probably when the string is moving at its fastest) rather than at the extreme edge where it slows down and changes direction. All I know is that my bow is quiet and if I do my job properly the arrows go where I have aimed Keep asking though there is not enough questioning of established ideas and quite a few that people swear by and are seen as bread and butter are folklore or have been taken out of context when first muted
Keep asking though there is not enough questioning of established ideas and quite a few that people swear by and are seen as bread and butter are folklore or have been taken out of context when first muted