to tape or not to tape?

Hi folks, sorry I know these potatoes have been boiled already - but I would welcome your views... (and sorry it's long)

For donkey's years I tuned bare-shaft vs fletched without tape to replicate vane-weight - it worked well enough.

But more recently there is advice to add tape to simulate the weight of the fletching - and this seems totally logical - so I have dabbled with that over past few years.

I shoot formula and have owned and tuned : excel, quattros, F4s and UUkha x-curves - plus old Yammy carbon ceramics. I have had various spines of Aces, X7s and X-busters - with every conceivable fletching, insert and point etc.

For me, adding the tape universally makes the bare shaft immensely stiff - even cranking limbs up to around 7lb over that recommended for a given arrow spine - still stiff! Going from 70 up to 200 grain points - still stiff.

For example, 29.5 inch X7 2114s with 47-48lb on my fingers and 150 grain points come out stiff - and I have a good strong release.

and I am talking 12 inches or so to left of group and tail to right at an angle of 30 degrees at 20yds.

Have checked bow weight on 4-5 different scales to check (wow how those vary too!) confirms that I am selecting the theoretically correct spine of arrows

As soon as i remove the tape - the results improve - then have to un-crank the bow and go for lighter points etc - but tuning is easy again

I want to ask Easton directly but can't find an email - It's not covered in their tuning guide or web-pages - or the FITA tuning manual.

I goes against logic, but I think i will go back to how I used to tune, otherwise I would end-up choosing arrows with spines 2 or even 3 levels weaker than expected to get a decent tune using tape. - and that has me concerned that it may not be giving good results.

I guess 'just shoot' will be the advice - and that is what i am doing - but it would be great to track down some evidential/science based advice from manufacturers on this issue - so any guidance or pointers to robust text is welcomed.

FYI I have a pretty good grasp on the theory about adjusting the dynamic spine of an arrow via measures like brace-height, arrow length and nodes etc, string weight and type, bow weight, weight at front and back of arrow, release quality, finger tension distribution etc plus relationship to tiller and nocking point etc. so no need to cover that...

I am more interested in other's experience in using tape - have any had similar or different experience?

cheers
 

geoffretired

Supporter
Supporter
I read about using tape about 25 years ago. I tried it and found that the nocking point could be raised a little as the bare shafts did not dive so readily with that little extra weight on the back. I had no changes in spine that I could tell.
Just to clarify; so hope you are not offended, I put on just enough tape to keep the FOC in the same place; and added it in the same position along the shaft that the fletchings fit onto.
 
I read about using tape about 25 years ago. I tried it and found that the nocking point could be raised a little as the bare shafts did not dive so readily with that little extra weight on the back. I had no changes in spine that I could tell.
Just to clarify; so hope you are not offended, I put on just enough tape to keep the FOC in the same place; and added it in the same position along the shaft that the fletchings fit onto.
Thanks Geoff - Yes, tape only in same place as fletchings (thicker at back where fletching is widest - and only the precise (within 0.2 grain) of the weight of difference between fletched and unfletched - FOC is spot on identical.

Hmmm.. no change ins spine? interesting... now i'm wondering if I am getting a clearance issue - would be difficult to track since rear end contact would likely be on rest or button - but it would be weird to get clearance issue on bare-shaft and none on fully fletched. Also it would be super-weird to get clearance issue on 3 bows and 4 sets of limbs and 4 different arrow specs
 

geoffretired

Supporter
Supporter
It would be worth painting something like lipstick on the rest and looking for marks on the tape; and on the fletched arrows. It would sound odd to get clearance with fletchings and contact with bareshafts. But there may be clearence issues with fletchings that are going undetected; while the bareshafts clear.
How difficult would it be to push three fletchings up inside the shaft , or the equivalent in weight and length?
Is there any chance the bareshaft or its nock are damaged in some way?
 

AndyS

Supporter
Supporter
How heavy are the vanes that you're replicating? the heavier the vane the greater the stiffening effect and weight at the back seems to have much more effect on behaviour than weight at the front.
I've seen a lot of opinion that with spinnies there's not much point in taping because they're so light - but I still routinely add the few grains of tape because I've seen an obvious but less extreme effect when compensating for heavier vanes.
Like you, I thought taping sounded logical so I tried it when I was shooting 3" impulse vanes. About 12 grains of tape per bare-shaft later and I was seeing the bare-shafts maybe 4 or 5 inches stiffer at 30m - so a much maller effect than you're seeing, but it was definitely there - I've been taping since.

Similarly my wife's just upgraded her bow, and we're also messing about with strings - a change to one that was about 14 grains heavier (so more weight at the back again) made the bare shafts shift from the gold to around the 4/5 boundary on a 40cm face at 18m (stiffer).

So whilst I'm a believer in taping, your results sound excessive just for tape unless you've got some very heavy fletchings.
 

Bill412

Member
Thanks Geoff - Yes, tape only in same place as fletchings (thicker at back where fletching is widest - and only the precise (within 0.2 grain) of the weight of difference between fletched and unfletched - FOC is spot on identical.

Hmmm.. no change ins spine? interesting... now i'm wondering if I am getting a clearance issue - would be difficult to track since rear end contact would likely be on rest or button - but it would be weird to get clearance issue on bare-shaft and none on fully fletched. Also it would be super-weird to get clearance issue on 3 bows and 4 sets of limbs and 4 different arrow specs

When I tried taping using enough 2" masking tape to match the weight of vanes it had a significant thickness and I could see it was hitting something at the front edge. I assumed it was the button. This would be consistent with a fletched arrow not having contact problems. I did not investigate further but just ditched the tape.

- Bill
 

geoffretired

Supporter
Supporter
If the weight of the tape is added inside the shaft, there is no change in the outside surface of the bareshaft.
On release, the items inside will want to get left behind, so will tend towards the back of the shaft. They will get a nasty shock when the arrow lands, so getting them out may require some pile removal or ingenuity.
How heavy are the vanes that you're replicating? the heavier the vane the greater the stiffening effect and weight at the back seems to have much more effect on behaviour than weight at the front.
AndyS has mentioned something that is worth investigating.
If you fletch a couple of arrows with very small vanes and tape the bareshaft just enough to balance that small weight, you may find the fletched arrows and the bareshafts behave differently from your current set up.
 

Rik

Supporter
Supporter
Would heavier tape work better...? When I do this, I tend to use ali tape, rather than paper stuff.
 

geoffretired

Supporter
Supporter
Good idea!
Am I correct in thinking that adding tape to give the same weight and balance, also changes the way the arrow leaves the bow? Not just its vertical flight path, but also its horizontal one?
With the extra weight there will be some slowing down of the bow making the weighted bareshaft appear stiffer. Also the weight at the back will change the flexing and waving side to side.
It may match the fletched arrows more closely than a bareshaft alone, but perform differently from the untaped bareshaft; and more so if the fletchings are large and heavy.
Is the situation here, to be expected and not a contact issue?
Is it possible that starting the tuning process with untaped bareshaft the cause of the surprise results? What if the process was started again using taped bareshafts, and the centreshot set etc etc.
 
I tried taping a half-inch of thin solder (same weight) single ply of tape - to the outside of the shaft (away from riser) to avoid contact - and another one being much more careful with keeping tape as thin as possible - and the shafts still showed stiff - but not as stiff as when I was not so careful with the tape. So I think there is something in the contact theory.I was also thinking of hot-melting the solder inside the shaft (great minds). May get chance to try that later. cheers.

A key point for me is whether the manufacturers' assessment of spine matching is based on a 'naked' bare-shaft as an indicator - or not - in which case we should follow the same model. The mufs don't advise either way - it's kind of left to archers to assume naked bare-shaft.

I have asked Easton and Carbon Express on FB, but get no reply. Can't find an email for either - looking for contacts for other Mufs. Anyone help? (not phoning the US!) - would prefer it in writing.

cheers
 

geoffretired

Supporter
Supporter
A key point for me is whether the manufacturers' assessment of spine matching is based on a 'naked' bare-shaft as an indicator - or not - in which case we should follow the same model
That is an interesting comment.
I am thinking that using just bareshafts untaped, is using a test method with a test arrow that is different from the fletched ones in two ways.( weight and balance) If you shot a fletched arrow that was lighter than your other fletched arrows, and had a FOC that was different also, you would find out what differences showed up just because of the difference in weight/balance.
Using a bareshaft that is different only in its lack of steering, is showing you what the shafts want to do regarding their exiting the bow. The fletched ones are exiting in a similar way, but having any deviating, corrected.
 

Rik

Supporter
Supporter
I suspect that manufacturers recommendations are not based on bare shaft tests, but on actual matching (statistical if there is enough data) or modelling.
 

Bill412

Member
my mate found this - Easton concur tape is correct
https://eastonarchery.com/2018/08/tuning-tips-for-the-toxophilite/
Thanks a lot, very useful tips. With this confirmation about using tape then I would also go with Rik's suggestion of using heavy tape. Sticky copper for example would give you the weight with much less profile than the many turns of masking tape I originally tried and minimise any chance of contact.

- Bill
 
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