Under drawing hex 4,5,6 limbs.

BorderBows

New member
ok.
Why is it bad to under draw Hex series limbs.

If you have a conventional bow thats too long for your draw length, under drawing it is not a problem.

With hex series limbs this can be a problem you didnt expect.

Stack is when your limbs are gaining at a higher rate than average. so if your bow is 40lbs at 28" your bow will be gaining at say an average of 2lbs per inch.

this gives a indication as to what you expect to pull for an easy life in that last inch as you come to anchor.

here is the fun.
If you pull a conventional bow back past its "usefull" draw length you will hit stack. Stack is when you are pulling 2.5lbs in that last inch. and if you look at the DFC graph you will see there the weight is gained. here is one of 2 conventional designs, and one of the hex series.


now, what your looking for is the steepness of the line, the steeper it is, the harder it is to pull. so as you can see, the steepness of the line on a hex series limb at 26"-27" is steeper than the conventional designs, but for a 70" bow, your under pulling it. It was aimed at 29-32" so thats where you want the most level line.
Conventional designs have the flatest point of the graph at 23-24" and this shows that at 26-27" your still running quite flat.
With a hex series limb your still pulling though the power of preload at 23-24, so that the limb can deliver its smooth point at 28" and beyond.
 


Amateur Barbarian

New member
I think the smoothness curve shows it the best. This curve shows pounds/inch for each inch of the draw cycle. I have compared a couple of conventional limbs to HEX5 and HEX6. You can see how the minimum moves out to longer draw length with the HEX geometry. Sid's comments would be consistent with shooting at draw lengths past the minimum. The flattened point on the graph, that Sid refers to, is the bottom of the valley of the smoothness curve.

 


geoffretired

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Supporter
Great graphs there! So are Sid's. Yours do accentuate the topic under discussion, make it easier to "see" what is happening.
 


EVC

New member
This smoothness thing is IMO BS. OK, let's not be that radical: it is extremely subjective as it is feeling related, thus dependent on the individual (and most certainly on the moment.)

I am shooting GMX + W&W INNO EX Powers bow ATM and the feel as smooth as or even smoother than my GMX + HEX-V bow even though she is 2+lbs heavier (42.5 versus 40.5lbs) . DL 29.25" with the INNO and a tad longer with the HEX-V (no idea why). Both bows 70".

It is worth to remember that when going through the clicker one is drawing say 1/8" or so. So we are talking about maybe 0.05lbs difference between the "smoother" and the not so "smoother" bot, out of forty something lbs DW. Does not seem such a significant difference to me.
 


JohnK

Well-known member
EVC - If you were drawing those bows to the normal draw length expected for a 70in bow - say, for example, 31in - you may well notice more of a difference. Alternatively, if you had two 68in bows you might well see the same effect.

If you could map a DFC for your bows I'm sure it would make interesting viewing :)

I got very frustrated when I was asked to help an archer try some Border HEX-V limbs. I was told he needed 70in limbs, and Sid kindly sent them down to me to pass on. At the club he strung them up and started shooting them, but it became clear he wasn't drawing them far enough to open up the recurves. Turned out his draw length was just under 29in. He was comparing them against equivalent poundage (at 29in) W&W limbs - I think they were INNO EX Powers.

I explained it wasn't a correct comparison, and that they'd need to drop the bracing height as well. I wasn't listened to. Next time I saw him he said he got the same sight marks at 70m with both limbs. I explained *again* that they needed to compare like-with-like, but he'd already made up his mind.
 


BorderBows

New member
This smoothness thing is IMO BS. OK, let's not be that radical: it is extremely subjective as it is feeling related, thus dependent on the individual (and most certainly on the moment.)

I am shooting GMX + W&W INNO EX Powers bow ATM and the feel as smooth as or even smoother than my GMX + HEX-V bow even though she is 2+lbs heavier (42.5 versus 40.5lbs) . DL 29.25" with the INNO and a tad longer with the HEX-V (no idea why). Both bows 70".

It is worth to remember that when going through the clicker one is drawing say 1/8" or so. So we are talking about maybe 0.05lbs difference between the "smoother" and the not so "smoother" bot, out of forty something lbs DW. Does not seem such a significant difference to me.
im surprised that you keep comeing to the same opinion. People seem to find a difference between G3's and Innos. and thats less than half the difference between Innos and Hex5's.

Smoothness is not subjective. There are Dozens of people that have commented on the Compound like letoff feeling that the hex limbs give during the draw. and so far your the only one that doesnt agree. We have found new dealers in Places like Japan because of this unique feeling, and Kamie should know what hes doing, he was an ex Yamaha Bow maker and was a member of the Japanese Oly team.
?|?̃??f???`?F???W?̂??Ɓi?R?j

kamie has now sold 100 pairs of hex5 and 6's into Japan for us.
Considereing we dont speak Japanese im a little suprised, its doing so well if they are just the same as all the other limbs out there.

Now the next fun aspec of this, if our limbs are just the same, i wonder why 30% of our production is going the US at present. our bows offer a unique feel, and people know it. Ask any European Bowyer how hard the US market is to be in or get into, and we are growing stringly. 8% 2 years ago and 30% 2 years later.

It can be seen on a graph and seen on peoples faces. the first time they pull a Hex5 or 6 limb they generally have a little smile or double take just as they get to full draw.

It does take the right draw length to achieve this feeling.
Longer limbs dilute the feeling, but its there and its all proovable.

Im only sorry that you dont feel what is there.
 


BorderBows

New member
EVC - If you were drawing those bows to the normal draw length expected for a 70in bow - say, for example, 31in - you may well notice more of a difference. Alternatively, if you had two 68in bows you might well see the same effect.

If you could map a DFC for your bows I'm sure it would make interesting viewing :)

I got very frustrated when I was asked to help an archer try some Border HEX-V limbs. I was told he needed 70in limbs, and Sid kindly sent them down to me to pass on. At the club he strung them up and started shooting them, but it became clear he wasn't drawing them far enough to open up the recurves. Turned out his draw length was just under 29in. He was comparing them against equivalent poundage (at 29in) W&W limbs - I think they were INNO EX Powers.

I explained it wasn't a correct comparison, and that they'd need to drop the bracing height as well. I wasn't listened to. Next time I saw him he said he got the same sight marks at 70m with both limbs. I explained *again* that they needed to compare like-with-like, but he'd already made up his mind.
Thats a shame JohnK. We do try and explain that the bows shoots well with the low brace height, and this thread testifies to the very problem you faced. If he insisted on a 70" bow i would have suggested 27" riser and meduim limbs. anything to open up the recurves. then the roles might have turned. We have a couple of people who have made compairsons with our bows to others, but kept the BH comparable with others. These have been bow making professionals that seem to know more about our kit than we do. 8.5" brace height on a 62" bow is outside of waranty. but thats what thier bow needed. so thats like compairing a tractor to a Dakar winning Bowler Wildcat Landrover and putting 6ft tractor tyres on the Bowler and then saying the acceleration isnt what the manufacturer states. but then stating in thier defence that it was to make the test comparable, and my responce is, does your design shoot just as quiet at 6.5" as ours does?
our design is different in that we have people here with 70" bows shooting 7.25" and we have a 72" RX27" shooting at 7. 1/8"... lets see your conventional recurve shoot quiet at that level. When you get the BH down the bow goes smooth, very smooth, and as one guy said "Doesnt like our design because its "lumpy" during the draw"
Then again hes another bowyers fan. hes openly stated he wouldnt buy our bows just because they are "border" and thats in direct competition to his mates bows.
The lumpy he was refereing to was the letoff feeling... get to full draw and then there is a lump, that he didnt like.
I'll try and dig the thread out.
 


BorderBows

New member
Here is a quote from a guy with a Luxor riser. I would like to add to his last comment. pick the right length limbs, and you can get this feeling at any draw length, but you have to have the right length limbs.
______________________

I shoot both the winnex and the Hex-6 and prefer the Hex-6 but, I have a fairly unique "problem" I have a 32 inch draw and the more I shoot the more I am convinced that most conventional limbs are made to be "sweet" in the standard draw ranges. Until I shot the Hex-6 I thought the winnex were the smoothest limb out there - after shooting the hex limbs for a couple of months I went back to the winnex and they defiantly stack at my draw length.

Speed wise the Hex are a little faster - I think they are considerably more stable but, have no way to prove it - they were harder for me to tune but, I think that is mostly because I had to fight preconceived notions on tune (they are a different kind of horse)

For me at my draw length yes I would pay more for the Hex limbs - for a guy with a normal draw I don't know you need to figure it out.

Matt
 


Timid Toad

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Ironman
I have always found, purely by luck, that pushing the upper end of the draw length makes for great performance. By Border's measurement I draw 29.25" but have always found medium limbs on a 25" riser gives good feel.
Dedicated recurvers will have to get used to the feel of the DFC, especially on the Hex6, as it feels as if it is stacking (disproportionately hard work) until the last 2" when it suddenly becomes easy to overdraw.
Because of this, if anyone asks me, I always say definitely go shorter rather than longer, if borderline.
 


BorderBows

New member
I have always found, purely by luck, that pushing the upper end of the draw length makes for great performance. By Border's measurement I draw 29.25" but have always found medium limbs on a 25" riser gives good feel.
Dedicated recurvers will have to get used to the feel of the DFC, especially on the Hex6, as it feels as if it is stacking (disproportionately hard work) until the last 2" when it suddenly becomes easy to overdraw.
Because of this, if anyone asks me, I always say definitely go shorter rather than longer, if borderline.
i couldn't agree more.

If you insist on going for the longer bow, then my only suggestion is to go for the longer riser shorter limb version to achieve your longer bow

70" bow = 27" riser meduim limbs.
 


EVC

New member
JohnK, some local coaches advice and what I understand as common sense in this and other forums suggest a 70in bow is recommended for somebody with a 29+ DL. I chose 70in because I was shooting with almost 30in DL but I have reduced it recently for several reasons (grip and riser change, achieving a more consistent stance etc.) As for BH, 8.5in was the lowest one that allowed me to have a silent bow. Anything bellow that (I even tried the lowest BH range suggested by Sid Sr.) produced a very noisy bow despite shooting heavy (i.e. X10) arrows. The INNO, with BH of 9in, close to the lowest value recommended by W&W makes a reasonably silent bow even with light arrows like the McKinneys I am shooting now.

Sid, IMO (stressing the O) these anecdotal smoothness evidences are self fulfilling prophecy: if one buys a brand new and very expensive pair of limbs believing they will be smoother than their current one, then they will be.

I am a physicist. So I use graphs often to analyse data. The DFC graphs I have seen comparing HEX limbs with others do not show enough a difference to justify such a loud cry about HEX differences as far as smoothnes is concerned. I just do not see how it can, biomechanically, do much difference. The extreme cases of subjectiveness are those that state that let off sensation. C'mon, the DFCs are not that different!!!

I am not saying the HEX-V is bad (though you know I had and still have some issues with some of the pairs I had/have.) I just do not think they are the eighth world's marvel as some of their owners cry in this forum.

PS: I agree the HEX-5/6 DFC and lower BH must give an advantage in stored energy and speed (though I still somewhat skeptic about how significant it is) and the HEX-5 does require weaker arrows so that torsional stiffness seems to make a difference - if it translates into better performance is another story.
 


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greysides

New member
After a recent field competition I had the opportunity to allow two of my peers to hexperiment.

Without prompting they mentioned the C-word in relation to the feeling at full draw. The C-word was 'compound'.

My wife draws 28" AMO. She can't open up the recurves of my long limbs, it's quite frustrating as I'd like her to experience the recurves uncoiling. In time, she'll be getting mediums and she'll feel it for herself.

Going back to conventional limbs, even older Border limbs or TXB's is a very different feel to the HEXperience.
 


BorderBows

New member
JohnK, some local coaches advice and what I understand as common sense in this and other forums suggest a 70in bow is recommended for somebody with a 29+ DL. I chose 70in because I was shooting with almost 30in DL but I have reduced it recently for several reasons (grip and riser change, achieving a more consistent stance etc.) As for BH, 8.5in was the lowest one that allowed me to have a silent bow. Anything bellow that (I even tried the lowest BH range suggested by Sid Sr.) produced a very noisy bow despite shooting heavy (i.e. X10) arrows. The INNO, with BH of 9in, close to the lowest value recommended by W&W makes a reasonably silent bow even with light arrows like the McKinneys I am shooting now.

Sid, IMO (stressing the O) these anecdotal smoothness evidences are self fulfilling prophecy: if one buys a brand new and very expensive pair of limbs believing they will be smoother than their current one, then they will be.

I am a physicist. So I use graphs often to analyse data. The DFC graphs I have seen comparing HEX limbs with others do not show enough a difference to justify such a loud cry about HEX differences as far as smoothnes is concerned. I just do not see how it can, biomechanically, do much difference. The extreme cases of subjectiveness are those that state that let off sensation. C'mon, the DFCs are not that different!!!

I am not saying the HEX-V is bad (though you know I had and still have some issues with some of the pairs I had/have.) I just do not think they are the eighth world's marvel as some of their owners cry in this forum.

PS: I agree the HEX-5/6 DFC and lower BH must give an advantage in stored energy and speed (though I still somewhat skeptic about how significant it is) and the HEX-5 does require weaker arrows so that torsional stiffness seems to make a difference - if it translates into better performance is another story.
evc, i understand your position. what this tread was about, was trying to explain, that longer is not always smoother.

That is because of the smoothness is closer to your draw length than conventional limbs.
Firstly, you cannot get a limb like this to work with earl hoyt technology. a few have tried.
secondly, to fill in the dip in the DFC that you see from 23-27" is something i dont think anyone has ever seen or done before in a conventional design.

Now if Hoyt can fill in a years worth of magazines with blurb on how amaizing the same bow as last year now is, i dont see why we cant say how good our evolutionary changes are, since the technology is a 3 step advance, and not just one.
No glass in the limb, XP10 carbon concept, and a limb that earl hoyt couldnt have built with the UD designs he had.
now, how many companies can claim that thier limbs have three layers of uniqueness.
We had an all carbon limb at the same time as W&W, we were 5 years ahead of W&W on the xp10 idea, and 8 years ahead of other bowyers on a limb concpet that doesnt work with UD designs.
Hoyt cant claim this!
Samick Cant.
W&W cant.
Bear?
Martin?
PSE?

Now the difference in a bow that stacks, and one that doesnt is about 0.3lbs difference in draw weight between the last inch of draw.

now back to the graph that hank posted and you can see that the hex limb pulls 0.3lbs or more than its competition at 29" and that is bigger at 30" + as the other limbs stack and the hex limbs dont.

the change in inflection point of the DFC is something unique to the hex limb. and any bow maker out there will understand that moving it to 26" opposed to 21" is not a normal limb.
 


Timid Toad

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In my experience, if I can feel a bow stacking, which equates to a tiny increase in weight, I can also feel the opposite.
Certainly for the majority of my drawlength on the Hex6s I thought I'd been sent the wrong poundage as it seemed such hard work. Opening out and pushing the limbs that last 2" made all the difference.
Convention in the UK seems to be 30" and up needs a long limb. Border seems to be rewriting the the book slightly in that might need to be 31" and up, and the conventional wisdom on BH needs to be rethought, but so long as the information is available to make a balanced and infomed choice it shouldn't be a problem.
If I was changing my car from a petrol to a diesel engine I would follow the manufacturer's recomendations on RPM, and would be changing gears say at 1500-2000rpm rather than 3000, so why wouldn't I follow the manufacturer's guidelines when buying a bow? It does irritate me that for all the experience some highly rated archers and coaches have they are so stuck with the last 30 years of perceived wisdom they cannot or will not set the bow up to manufacturers' guidelines because they are slightly different.
 


BorderBows

New member
After a recent field competition I had the opportunity to allow two of my peers to hexperiment.

Without prompting they mentioned the C-word in relation to the feeling at full draw. The C-word was 'compound'.

My wife draws 28" AMO. She can't open up the recurves of my long limbs, it's quite frustrating as I'd like her to experience the recurves uncoiling. In time, she'll be getting mediums and she'll feel it for herself.

Going back to conventional limbs, even older Border limbs or TXB's is a very different feel to the HEXperience.
I dont know if you remember a thread a while ago where i asked what muscle groups were used during the draw cycle.
Basically that is the exact experience we get when we go to shoots with our stand. We had 3 Belgians on bikes arrive just last week, and on the first draw, the first guy said to the other, some thing in Belgain (could have been flemish) "compound" more Begian words...

since no single string bow at present has letoff, i do wonder how the bodies geometry and muscle loadings/ working position works.

I ask this because while the eaisest point of the draw on conventional designs that everyone is used to is about the 21" mark, the hex series has its smoothpoint at 26".
This change in loadings seems to suit the "compound" term as we have heard it alot, about 70% of the first time pulls come out with it., and on that note, id love to see how the muscles accept the loadings.
As EVC said, there isnt a MASSIVE amount in it, but enough for 70% of the people to notice it.
What we have also observed is that those that dont have a draw long enough to suit the bows length and the DFC say that the bow is not smooth infact it possibly stacks. we have had this term some 6-7 times now for "short for bow" draw lengths.


Id love to see which mucles have what loadings at which points in the draw, and as correct back tension is applied, there must be a transition from the different muscle groups. and how this works on the way the limbs load up.


We are comeing to the theory that as the loadings run though the bone structure and not all at angles where mucles have to work, the reduced climb in weight works in harmony with the bodies alignment. giving an sensation of letoff, opposed to the climb of the onset of stack working against a alinging of the arms/shoulders.

We are not anatomy experts in ANY way, we are trying to work out how the two correspond to come up with this "compound like" feeling so many people pick up on.

The only data we have is the DFC... and it shows a difference in the two limb designs and clearly people see it/feel it when we get the bow length right.
 


EVC

New member
Sid, I must be in the 30% group bellow the perception threshold to notice a difference. I just do not feel a difference between both bows (HEX and INNO). The HEX recurves outstand and many fellow archers I talked with here had that "Wow" when noticed that. A few (including a coach) asked me to draw the bow and said how smooth she was. Maybe as they expect something to be different it just happens to be.

As for your comments on R&D and marketing claims of other bowyers, I agree. "Does not hit the arm" and the tec bar (in recurves) comes to mind. :) All make some bold claims, some of them justified, others are not. I appreciate the fact that Border, being a small company, spends a lot of effort doing R&D.

Cheers.

Elder.

PS: the 70in length was suggested by Sr. At the time with an INNO riser and a Jager grip I had a DL close to 30in. I am shooting two GMXes now, with the original (lower wrist) grips slightly modified.
 


BorderBows

New member
Sid, I must be in the 30% group bellow the perception threshold to notice a difference. I just do not feel a difference between both bows (HEX and INNO). The HEX recurves outstand and many fellow archers I talked with here had that "Wow" when noticed that. A few (including a coach) asked me to draw the bow and said how smooth she was. Maybe as they expect something to be different it just happens to be.

As for your comments on R&D and marketing claims of other bowyers, I agree. "Does not hit the arm" and the tec bar (in recurves) comes to mind. :) All make some bold claims, some of them justified, others are not. I appreciate the fact that Border, being a small company, spends a lot of effort doing R&D.

Cheers.

Elder.

PS: the 70in length was suggested by Sr. At the time with an INNO riser and a Jager grip I had a DL close to 30in. I am shooting two GMXes now, with the original (lower wrist) grips slightly modified.



Part of the detail is missing in the smoothenss graphs posted by AB. the reasons are well known to both of us, and anyone doing some maths.
Excel uses a Polynomial line to indicate the trend in smoothness, and the more you actuall see them, everyone of them shows the same double dip, and that double dip is even more pronounced in short limbs.
We have been looking into this trait, over the last year.
If you look at the dots on the graph rather than the line, especially that flight bow limb graph that was posted a little while ago, you might see that the limbs have a two stage smoothness.
This is something we tried to play with on the hex6 and we think we have done so.
 


greysides

New member
Sid, next time you visit the university ask some of their Natural Sciences/Medical people about it. Should be physios or anatomy professors around that might help.
 


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