What do MB and GMB stand for/represent?

Whitehart

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But this makes me wonder, if the 720 is seen predominantly as a slave to the H2H for providing an initial ranking, is it serving a different purpose to the 1440/Y-H
An interesting point I certainly do, the aim is to qualify for the H2H where it becomes a lottery and in the UK excluding perhaps the top 10 archers anyone below that can beat anyone they are paired with and I find it easier to shoot over 600 more regularly on a 720 than 1200 on a FITA where I screw up one distance somewhere down the line through lack of fitness, concentration or incorrectly adjust my sight throwing away points by not taking into consideration local conditions etc.
 

bimble

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let's not forget that the World Champs (and the World Cup events in a World Champs year) use to use the 1440 to rank for the H2H rather than the 720... but remember 720s require smaller fields, and can be shot in half a day which allows H2H matches to follow.

There's nothing in the rules saying that a WRS H2H event need to use the 720 for ranking. If clubs wanted to do a 1440/H2H or a 900/H2H they can... but one would probably need two days for the single event, and the second would probably also struggle to fit it in a single day.
 

bimble

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Oh, I don't know...
I think we both probably remember a very exciting 3 rounds of longbow one arrow shoot off one year that had the entire field on the edge of their seats waiting for a winning 'thud'... :D
lol... not sure "exciting" is quite the word!! Entertaining, and amusing certainly! I've got a 5 round single arrow shoot-off on video somewhere... and I think the record is ~7 rounds...
 

little-else

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Whilst partially agreeing that the pinnacle of archery is shooting well at the longest of distances the idea that it is the be all and end all is now rather dated and to use the analogy of running, the most watched athletic event in the world is the 100m olympic final, not the 3000m steeplechase or the 50km walk. Track cycling trumps road races as well.
Where we are behind the curve is in staing that someone getting a perfect score in a national round is only worth a second class badge and a handicap of 6 but if you drop 2 points the handicap goes up to 11. The other problem in achieving GMB and MB is the lack of events to enter in a given year unless you have almost unlimited funds. Running a double York tournament for a rose shoot? Half a dozen people will attend both days if you are lucky.
The cone of fire idea for determining group size and thus handicap doesnt work well in practice either becasue your target is not in the centre of the cone once you get beyond 40 yds so for the lower classes and longbow/barebow especially there is a distortion. Added to that the classes dotn correlate across ages, sex or bowstyle. Why joes a jumior girl barebow archer have to get a higher score than a senior lady at the same distance to achieve the same classification? same with some girls/ladies longbow classifications. These anomalies have been there since day one but the powers that be still havent got round to adjusting them back to the same score even if they cant decide what the junior score should really be.
A more equitable thing would be a separate classification for each round rather than trying to amkke the handicap system fit there are other handical systems that work well and can be applied. Yes, this creates a little more work for the people who keep the records at club and national level but I think it will give people an incentive to DO something rather than just shoot. It woudl also add another bit of frission to a local tournament that is one of the shorter rounds by having aditional prizes for handicap or combined score as well as normal scoring. I know this is already possible but I have yet to find a tournament local to me that has a handicap trophy even when I am asked to provide my handicap but there again I have only been shooting properly for 8 years so I dont remember the good old days I am always told about by those who were there in the 1950's to 70's You can also chop the 1440 into 2 halves as well to create possibilities for classifcations and and prizes but not with the current rules wheras you can with WA clout- explain

Also the peopel who win things at long distance arent usually the same people who excel at the shorter distances. Malcolm Cooper, multiple olympic and commonwealth games rifle champion used to win things at 50m smallbore and 300m full bore but was usually an also ran at 25 yds or the longer ranges fullbore rifle. His best score at 1000 yds he did using a pistol made from one of his own rifles cut down rather than prone rifle
 

geoffretired

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The 100m final is unique in running events. It shows the fastest in the world( at the time at least.)
Plus, with so little time to correct any slight mistake even the spectators are tense.
Plus, it doesn't last so long that you need to have a break before the end.
Throwing things a long way can be interesting to watch; to see who throws the furthest.
I feel that some sports capture our attention because we are almost programmed to be interested in them.
Watching an overtake in most longer speed events; is usually more interesting than seeing the laps go by with the competitors staying in the same order. We see the overtake and react.
 

KidCurry

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But MB/GMB is nothing to do with watching. I like they are tradition. I like that they test skill and endurance. I like that they haven't been lost in this throwaway instant gratification, instant feedback world. They represent a bit of archery that seems to be disappearing. There should always be a bit of room for 'tradition' as the song goes. There are always FITA Target awards if you don't want to shoot the longest distance.
 

ArcheryFox

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The other problem in achieving GMB and MB is the lack of events to enter in a given year unless you have almost unlimited funds.
I like these events, and I think others do too I would hope that the current status would be a driving force to keep these competitions.
I note that Meriden's double 1440, usually popular as a pretty safe bet for 2 decent classification scores, would this year have been a 1440 and 720+H2H...

The cone of fire idea for determining group size and thus handicap doesnt work well in practice either becasue your target is not in the centre of the cone once you get beyond 40 yds so for the lower classes and longbow/barebow especially there is a distortion.
Yes, see my comments above. Though the system 'works' for now it isn't by any means perfect, but once you start adding shorter distances and rounds in it starts to become even less perfect and the comparisons become even less reasonable.

Added to that the classes dotn correlate across ages, sex or bowstyle. Why joes a jumior girl barebow archer have to get a higher score than a senior lady at the same distance to achieve the same classification? same with some girls/ladies longbow classifications.
I have taken this specific case up with AGB, and I know at least one other person who has also done so.
The problem originates due to the fact that in the year the scores for each classification were set there was an exceptionally good junior lady who led to this anomaly. They have confirmed that these problems are going to be addressed as part of a review.

A more equitable thing would be a separate classification for each round rather than trying to amkke the handicap system fit there are other handical systems that work well and can be applied. Yes, this creates a little more work for the people who keep the records at club and national level but I think it will give people an incentive to DO something rather than just shoot.
This would be so much work I think, and there just isn't the data there (How many compounds do you know who shot Junior Windsors recently, or anyone who shot a St. Nicholas, never mind having similar ability ranges reflected in the data for all the rounds).
Though not perfect, the handicap does provide a rough and ready way to compare rounds shot by an archer to see broadly how they compare. I think there could certainly be scope to look at improving the handicap scheme, but the danger is that it gets so complicated that the average archer becomes even less bothered to understand and use it than they already are!

I have yet to find a tournament local to me that has a handicap trophy even when I am asked to provide my handicap but there again I have only been shooting properly for 8 years so I dont remember the good old days I am always told about
As a contrary anecdote my club has always handed out the handicap medal every year for at least the last two decades, but then they are very long/well established.
In addition our county's end of year shoot is always run as a handicap competition, as are a number of our (and local) club's monthly shoots to allow all members to compete together. As mentioned above the system is not perfect, and as a reasonable gents compound I know I am out of the running, but it allows new members to get involved and shows the system is still used in some places.

Also the peopel who win things at long distance arent usually the same people who excel at the shorter distances. Malcolm Cooper, multiple olympic and commonwealth games rifle champion [...]
Personally I am not a great fan of these analogies. Though both are target sports there are differences between archery and gun sports. For a start we shoot the same bow at all distances, whilst pistol and long range rifle are very different disciplines - I can shoot a compound well, but my attempts at barebow have been atrocious! :p
There are some sports/formats that are better to watch, and variety across sports, but I am not asking so much what we want to see rather what we, as archers, think the MB and GMB classifications mean to us, and what their recipients have demonstrated. I think KidCurry's comment immediately above sums this up excellently!
 

ArcheryFox

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I'm really glad this has been such a good discussion; I never expected this level of engagement.
Thank you to everyone who has contributed so far and given me a lot of things to consider.
Even if you don't all have the same opinion it's good to see and appreciate the different views that are out there.
On this note I really encourage you to email Archery GB as they requested to let them know that there are a lot of thoughts on the matter and it should recieve careful consideration.
I won't post the email address here, but it can be found on pg. 58 of the recent ArcheryUK magazine as I stated above.

I really like the following statement that I think sums this up well and brings things back on topic after diverging a little:
But MB/GMB is nothing to do with watching. I like they are tradition. I like that they test skill and endurance.
[...]
They represent a bit of archery that seems to be disappearing. There should always be a bit of room for 'tradition' as the song goes. There are always FITA Target awards if you don't want to shoot the longest distance.
It does make me a little sad that that this side of things seems to be dissappearing, especially when there are so many keen everyday archers who like this.

After reflecting on the points here I now think that the MB awards to me represent the ability to display good form consistently across a range of distances whilst maintaining that focus throughout the course of the round/day. And then being able to do this repeatably 3 times!
There should be an element of the long distance, though it is not the be all and end all - just one of the skills the scheme tests, and one that requires practice and hard work to be successful at.
Success in this framework requires hard work and dedication to training to be an excellent all-round archer (a 'master'?) rather than specialising at just one distance.

I think there is a reasonable argument to be made for allowing Bowman classifications from 720 rounds for gents, as someone suggested above, and perhaps there is an opportunity to revisit the handicap system and scores whilst also cleaning up anomalies in the system during this review.
 

geoffretired

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Can I just clarify, that I am not trying to say that archery should become a spectator sport.
I am on the side of club archery being enjoyed by those who shoot.
My last post was a reply about spectator sports and what generates a desire to watch.
It was a follow up to a previous post about shorter distances and sprinting; like shorter distances in the 720 round.
 

KidCurry

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I only started watching archery online, is there anywhere else, in the last few years as my shooting frequency slows. I still wouldn't watch a WA1440 even if it was available. The short 15 arrows or so H2H are great for watching form and you tend to see quite a few archers in a short space of time, but they are not so great to shoot I find.
 

little-else

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GNAS/AGB have had a couple of decades to put right the anomalies in the handicap and classification schemes but are still apparently looking at it the fact that only 1 person 's scoring was used to determine the scores for at least 2 bowstyles says a lot about the introduction of the scheme and the popularity of certain disciplines as well.
My analogy using Malcolm Cooper wasnt about the different style of gun but about him as a shooter. I used to shoot an out of the box pistol at ranges between 7 and 300 yards in different competitions ans they all had their own classification scores according to the practice. You could shoot the same rounds using different guns and they would need to reach a different scratch score to get the relevant badgeThat never seemed to worry the people who started the schemes with the NPAas they did so because they knew there was a demand for such things amongst the members of the various clubs that the other national organisations ( NRA and NSRA) were not providing.
I like shooting long distance, the longer the better and I would happily shoot clout at a furlong as it was back in Henry VIII's day but how many places can hold such a tournament? If tradition is importnat why does no-one else insist that all tournaments are shot using the St Leonards round out of deference to our dear departed queen Victoria?
I am not advocating getting rid of any round but finding a way of making things more pertinent to what people can reasonably be expected to do and giving that equal status. if you win a tournament, you win and that is regardless of what you scored or who else turned up so why is it importnat that a score of GM level has to be only at a very limited number of events? If it is because of the possibility of cheating then you do what you do in golf match days, you have 2 people sign off your scorecard and the score still has to be achived at some sort of official day such as a club monthly official shoot, inter club shoot or whatever.
As said earlier, there arent that many tournaments you can enter that dont require considerable journey time or outlay to notch up the required scores. Cant do it by staying in my county and that must apply to many others as well.
 

KidCurry

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... if you win a tournament, you win and that is regardless of what you scored or who else turned up so why is it importnat that a score of GM level has to be only at a very limited number of events?
Because it is not just about shooting a particular score but shooting it at a particular time and under particular constraints. It's record status because the constraints are strict and enforced. To shoot GMB at club level means being able to wait for the wind to drop each end or waiting for the shower to pass so conditions are ideal. It makes it a lot easier to achieve. The scores needed to attain MB/GMB would go up even higher to keep it under the 1% threshold.
 

Geophys2

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I made MB in each of the previous two years, and only had to shoot to 50m, that was in field archery though. :)
 

ArcheryFox

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A good point KC, and I think also, as we have raised above, shooting at a certain level is not the only aspect people see as important, it's shooting at a certain level across varying distance (including at range) and with an endurance element. My original question was originally intended to ask what people see the award representing beyond the ability to display a certain level of accuracy. I did not originally intend it as a 'should it be modernised?' so much as a 'do these rounds fit the criteria the general populous see the award as embodying?', but I see now how these issues are perhaps intertwined since the proposal involves rounds seen as more 'modern'.

For field MB you still had to do varying distances including your longest field distance on an all-day round at three RS events ;).
It would be interesting to discuss what attributes we see an MB field archer as embodying, however, as perhaps they are different qualities given that it is a different award under AGB. Related to this I do wonder if they should be combined as having to get 3 RS scores on different courses takes a lot of travel (even more than target MB) and I always feel that I am forced each year as a working adult to choose between pursuing one or the other. My general inclination is no, but it is worth thinking about.
And some interesting trivia for you - the MB field gents compound score for a WA Marked 24 as if shot on the flat is of a higher standard (in terms of handicaps) than the target MB scores. I have not checked the other categories (yet...).

L-E I know that archeryGB have had some time to look at all this, but having been in discussion with them it seems that the issue is simply that no-one there understands the handicap scheme and equations. Hence why we haven't seen any tables for the Vegas 300 or barebow WA50 yet. Looking on the bright side I would say it is good that they are finally addressing this and looking at making updates, even if they are long overdue.
 

Geophys2

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Is that the longest distance? Forgive me, I'm not a field archer.
For unsighted bows 50m is the maximum distance for sighted bows it is 60m. The same requirements as in target, three RS shoots. These will usually be over two days with targets at unmarked distances on the first day where the maximum is 45m unsighted/55m sighted, day two the targets are at marked distances 50m/60m. I shoot Trad Bow, so no sights, no button or adjustable rest and wood/feather arrows or string walking.

I did make target MB one year with the Olympic recurve, so yes had to shoot RS 90m/100yd rounds. To my mind MB field is much harder to achieve
 

ArcheryFox

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For unsighted bows 50m is the maximum distance for sighted bows it is 60m. The same requirements as in target, three RS shoots. These will usually be over two days with targets at unmarked distances on the first day where the maximum is 45m unsighted/55m sighted, day two the targets are at marked distances 50m/60m.
They also have to come from 3 different courses (except for the National Champs where marked and unmarked are separate courses so you can count both).

This is what makes it a challenge for me as you have to enter (at least) three full weekend shoots, and they can be very sparsely located and a long way depending on where you are based in the UK.
 

KidCurry

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Hence why we haven't seen any tables for the Vegas 300 or barebow WA50 yet. Looking on the bright side I would say it is good that they are finally addressing this and looking at making updates, even if they are long overdue.
If you go to the Crystal Palace Bowmen website, drop down to Handicap section, it brings up a list of rounds. If you go to the very bottom of the list you will find 'Non-standard Round'. You can put in your own round/distances etc and it will give you the H/C. I have no idea how they do this, whether they use the original formula or look-up tables but it is really very useful for practice. Very handy for WA50 Barebow :)
 

ArcheryFox

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An excellent resource, and to answer your musing they have the original handicap equations coded up in javascript.
This is how they allow you to explore the effect of changing the arrow diameter

Those of us who know the seemingly dark arts of the handicap equations know about all the 'fun' you can have investigating things.
I have a useful piece of code to do the same calculations, but need to make it do something that the CP webpage currently doesn't to make it worth putting it online. One such thing I have been doing is calculating handicaps for EFAA and WA field rounds as if they were shot on the flat which can be interesting. This is somewhat off-topic however, so my apologies and I digress.
 
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