What should we discuss next?

geoffretired

Supporter
Supporter
Hi Folks,
I am not coaching at the moment and getting withdrawal symptoms.
It would be good to throw out some ideas and get the opinions of others( archers/coaches)
Any suggestions for topics?
Anything that you might consider your to be your "pet subject" or "pet hate" .
 


Del the Cat

Well-known member
Me Sir... me Sir!
Had that old chestnut again on a FB group... someone claiming you can't shoot wooden arrows from a compound.
He didn't understand that a compound has a lower initial acceleration than a stick bow.
I think a lot of people just can't differentiate ;) between velocity and acceleration.
If the let off gives a holding force on the fingers of say 30# then that's the initial force accelerating the arrow, the cams start working and the force ramps up, the acceleration ramps up and the velocity increases further.
Between a conventional bow and a compound It's not like a drag race... it's not which leaves the string in the shortest time... it's which leaves with the highest velocity, and that isn't the same thing....
EG. in a drag race, the second over the line may well be travelling at a faster final speed than the winner, it just took longer to get up to top speed.
Discus
Del
 


geoffretired

Supporter
Supporter
That's a nice topic, thanks for your input.
This is my own take on this, so bear that in mind,if you will.
In my opinion, all archers draw their bows and all have to prevent creep one way or another, even compounds.( crossbows are exempt)
Compounds may be slightly easier because of the low holding weight, but creep can still happen if their mind gets distracted by something else in the shot process.
Recurves with clickers can creep, too. Some draw past the clicker, wait; and creep while they wait. Others draw almost to the clicker, then slow down , then stop, then creep, then struggle!
Archers with no clickers have the draw weight to manage; and the movement in the backwards direction( opposite if creeping) to control.
Being over bowed can lead to creeping, for obvious reasons.
Something that happens in some archers' shot routine, is to get the sequence in the "wrong"order.( wrong in speechmarks because this is my view not gospel)
If the archer draws to their face,then stops the draw and then settles the aim( with a sight, or with an arrow point, or using a gap) the act of settling the "aim" can take their mind off the drawing and a creep sets in.
If the order is changed, so the "aim" is settled before the face is reached with the string, then the draw will continue to the face WHILE the "aim" is being settled further.
In the archer's mind, is the knowledge that the draw is unfinished as the "aim" is settling. The draw is continuing with the "aiming". The drawing and reaching the face is the last thing in the sequence..... and ends only when they reach their follow through position.
I liken this to the sprinter who runs to reach the tape, compared to the one that runs to break the tape. The second sprinter knows they are still running when the tape has already been broken.
 


geoffretired

Supporter
Supporter
I'm with you on that Del.
I say it's like pushing a swing when it's already moving away from you, compared to pushing a swing from a stand still.
In the first case the one on the swing goes high and fast, and hardly feels the extra push. In the second case they get a sudden bump at the back and don't go half as high.
The compound pushes the arrow really hard, but not until after it is moving in the right direction, so the arrow hardly notices, and doesn't need to be so strong.
 


Del the Cat

Well-known member
I'm with you on that Del.
I say it's like pushing a swing when it's already moving away from you, compared to pushing a swing from a stand still.
In the first case the one on the swing goes high and fast, and hardly feels the extra push. In the second case they get a sudden bump at the back and don't go half as high.
The compound pushes the arrow really hard, but not until after it is moving in the right direction, so the arrow hardly notices, and doesn't need to be so strong.
I like your swing analogy :)
Del
 


geoffretired

Supporter
Supporter
Del, I think a lot of issues with compounds are based on some archers not liking them when they first appeared on the scene. That "bad press" has been exaggerated and passed on by "experienced archers" which gave their words weight in the eyes of newer archers. The worst things is they won't try one. Their gentle power could convert many if they once put their prejudice aside.
Yes, they can be dangerous; but some are shot at peak weights that are way higher than required. Indoors at 20y who needs such speeds?
Outdoors, in the hands of a club archer who needs 60lb?
 


geoffretired

Supporter
Supporter
Bandit, I don't have a problem with 60lb... in the right context.
If my history of compounds is correct, they were first taken up by bow hunters. Faster the better for them, as a clean kill is more likely and sight setting less critical.
Bows are mainly made for hunting and draw weights reflect that.
Recurve world records can be set with 40+lbs. Their arrow speeds are sufficient for that task.
Compound arrow speeds could be kept to something close to those of recurves and be just as accurate if not more so.
Holding weight on a compound can be adjusted at the manufacturing stage, to produce a useful amount alongside a peak weight that is lower than at present, to give arrows speeds like those of recurves.
Compound archers often talk about a good holding weight; and I know that can make a difference. I don't often hear of compounders saying how great their peak weight feels. I don't think pulling over peak is as pleasurable as the shooting of the bow is.
A mistake with a 60lb compound can put the arrow over 1/4 mile away.
 


Bandit

Member
OK this is a response to a few of the other comments in this thread, not just the last one.

Considering some of the elite Olympic male archers "choose" to shoot 50lb+ recurve bows I question your logic. Why do they do this? Power = heavier arrows and flatter arrow flight. All of this is great to combat wind drift. It also gives a cleaner release as a bonus ball.

60lb's is not dangerous if the archer is responsible and has the correct coaching.

Some cam profiles are nicer/ easier to draw than others. Building up to a draw weight of 60lb isn't hard for the average man "IF" they practice. If there is one thing many archers fail to do miserably in this country is practice enough. Just rocking up to the club on a Saturday morning and expecting to get better is an epic journey into mediocrity. If people want to get good at anything they have to put the time in.

Archery clubs and club archers are supposed to be where squad archers are born, don't sell them short. Sure, not everyone is going to be an elite archer but we can be the best version of ourselves.

Indoors you could shoot a lighter bow but even with a compound you get a cleaner release with a heavier bow. It also conditions the archer for the outdoor season.

Regarding shooting wood arrows from a Compound bow. Why? Whats the point? Yes it is potentially dangerous and a pointless risk.
 


4d4m

Member
Regarding shooting wood arrows from a Compound bow. Why? Whats the point? Yes it is potentially dangerous and a pointless risk.
I don't know what the point of doing it would be, but Del's point is that it wouldn't be any more dangerous (and in fact less dangerous) than doing so from a longbow of the same draw weight. From a 60lb longbow the arrow gets 60lb up its backside the moment the string slips the fingers AND it has to flex more to get round the bow stave AND it starts in contact with the archer's hand.
 


geoffretired

Supporter
Supporter
Bandit, everything you say, I can agree with.
But that doesn't mean that I have to follow your logic to the same conclusion.
As the javelin records increased they could have made bigger stadiums and had even more spectators watching.
As soccer players get fitter and stronger and as footballs get better and less inclined to soak up the water from wet pitches, so the fields could be made larger, to get more spectators in.
But the javelins were made heavier and I think had a different point of balance, to reduce the distances they could expect them to reach. I think the decision was made for safety reasons; yet we still see the best throwers in the world reaching top spot on the podium.
If 60lbs can be set as a maximum, despite many archers being capable of far more, why not allow 70lbs?
 


Bandit

Member
I reckon 70lb would make it hard to get the arrows out of the target and the targets would need to be more heavy duty.

I too agree but restrained by the current distances adult male archers have to shoot to get MB or GMB. ( I'm after GMB, I can dream lol )

I think the current rules have been in place for quite some time regarding bow weight. What I don't quite understand is the qualification rounds are at longer distance (1440) but all Olympic/world cup rounds ( recurve) are 70m (compound) 50m smaller face

Considering these changes I do question the need for the longer distance rounds? It makes it way harder for clubs to find a decent field with an appropriate over shoot. It also forces archers to go for bow weights they find uncomfortable so they can reach said longer distance.

If anything I reckon cap the distance to 70m or 80 yds and put the scores up for qualification or reduce the target size.
 


geoffretired

Supporter
Supporter
When maximum scores are shot frequently, then is the time when I would reduce target sizes.
I can see what you mean about outdated distances etc. And the pressure to reach them and fields to shoot them on.
But, on the other hand, if the choice is shoot shorter distances or close the club, I would shoot shorter distances .
For a lot of archers, 60y is a challenge. If a club establishes itself as a short range club and archers choose to shoot there; so be it. Those who want more must look further afield.
If that holds back potential Olympic gold medallists, then it should be the task of something like AGB to help them reach their potential.
The clubs themselves might be perfectly happy with their lot.They were set up by volunteers and sorted out by volunteers and kept going by volunteers. They will survive if they are able to keep bringing in new members to replace the ones they lose.
 


Kernowlad

Active member
Well I’ve just paced out the field we’ve inherited and it’s 54 yards (ish) and flat so I’ll be getting some targets down there ASAP!
 


Whitehart

Well-known member
The dress code ........ always used to get good engagement although perhaps 1 April for this one.

For those not able to shoot - visualisation?
This is a good vid

Why would you want to shoot wooden arrows out of a compound inheriting all the problems LB archers have trying to make up a matched set :)
 


geoffretired

Supporter
Supporter
Dress code. What a great topic that was for getting people to open up and start spitting feathers. A bit like the coaching code of not coaching without being asked first.
I like the video( not watched it all yet.)
I think that at a very basic level,and for archers who are still not far beyond beginners, visualisation of a sort can be helpful.
A simple example of what I mean is something I did in a session with the group I try to help. We were discussing; "knowing what our shot routine is", not a rough idea, but the one they use. I asked everyone to go through their own routine in their head then afterwards they all gave a mime for me to watch.
Those waiting to do a mime could not see what the others did, so each mime came from their own imagination... no copying the previous person's mime.
It was interesting to see how some had no follow through! The other surprise was how so many of the mimes had an "aim" which lasted no longer than a very small part of a second.The archers were all recurve sighted archers.
 


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