What should we discuss next?

malbro

Instinctive Archer
Supporter
AIUK Saviour
Hi Malbro. Yes I see that. What I was getting at was how different archers use the different parts of the definition leading to disagreements between those using the latter part and those using the former part. Specially when each doesn't know which part the other is using.
A common language that divides us :rolleyes:
 

English Bowman

Well-known member
I think the term Instinctive comes from two misunderstandings. One is not understanding "instinctive" in the way that it is something we are born with. The other is misunderstanding how they actually shoot, forgetting the learning that went on to get even part way good at it.
I liken it to driving over those speed bumps that we try to straddle with our wheels. After a while you can judge how to get over without getting either wheel going over the high spots. We don't use sights on the bonnet, but we do use references that let us know which way to adjust the approach in order to stay on the best line. I first noticed this when I changed my car for a much wider one. I have already forgotten what the references are that I used to adjust my approach; I drive over now, without really noticing how I adjust.
I suppose I could say it's just instinctive now..... but that is the wrong word. It should be "without any conscious effort" perhaps.
Using "instinctive" because it is shorter and easier to say... yes, I could fall into that one. Passing it on to other drivers as instinctive...... no; I shouldn't do that.
I agree with you there, and the time that really annoyed me was at a tournament when I overheard an archer who I was shooting with talking to another AFB archer and telling him that he didn't aim, just looked at the target and shot, he claimed that he didn't even see the arrow when he was at full draw. The issue I had with this is that only 2 targets before the break this archer told me exactly what he was aiming at even pointing out the exact flower that he was using as a reference point. So why did he tell me that he was aiming precisely and someone else that he just looked at the target and shot?
To me the answer was I was beating him, so obviously wasn't going to take his advice, the other archer was an up and coming archer in the same category so was a threat and the false info could hold the other guy back. Either that or he wanted to be "cool" by being an instinctive archer.
(The archer he spoke to was a member of my club, who I coach, and I did confirm t hat I hadn't miss heard)
 

geoffretired

Supporter
Supporter
I think that instance is an example of dishonesty. Deliberate, rather than a misunderstanding of the kinds I was describing.
 

geoffretired

Supporter
Supporter
How about we try to get some agreement regarding the execution part of the shot? It's importance and the ways it can happen; possibly a good way to want it to happen??
 

KidCurry

Well-known member
AIUK Saviour
How about we try to get some agreement regarding the execution part of the shot? It's importance and the ways it can happen; possibly a good way to want it to happen??
Do you mean that fraction of a second between setup and follow through?
 

geoffretired

Supporter
Supporter
Hi KIdCurry.
Yes that short space of time where things happen; things that are almost left to happen.( in a sense at least)
It's the part where archers say afterwards," I knew that was going to be a bad shot". It's a sort of stage that there is no recovering from, if it goes "wrong." Some archers say " I knew that was an X".
 

KidCurry

Well-known member
AIUK Saviour
Ahhh. that fraction of a second when all you need to do is relax the hand holding the string enough to release the string. Is there anything else we need to know? :)
Mind you I don't think it is a true relaxation of the holding fingers, not in the sense of complete relaxation. Watching Chang HyeJin in the video below her fingers move very little. 2.01 to 2.02. Her forefinger just moves enough to allow the string to slide off the finger.
 
Last edited:

geoffretired

Supporter
Supporter
I would imagine that a slight relaxing will allow the string to push the fingers aside. Archers who try to relax the fingers, by attempting to straighten them, will find the string pushes hard against a stiff set of fingers. They are in conflict with each other, and the string is never going to lose that battle.
As to needing to know any more.... not sure about MORE so much as Better.??
 

jerryRTD

Well-known member
KidCurry, I understand what you are saying and there must be times when that is exactly what we want to happen. Sight on the x arrow in the x.
BUT for many archers, the sight can be on the x and the arrows is a blue. or red. or 9 not 10.
The sight position is only part of what is required. The other parts need to be just as well placed; but if the only focus to the shot is the sight, the other parts don't get any attention so they stay "variable."
I can appreciate that when really good archers shoot, if the sight isn't in the middle the arrow won't be either. They have to get the sight in the middle and keep their form together. BUT it seems they know how that can be done.
Over aiming is as bad as under aiming. Over aiming damages what might otherwise be better form. Under aiming doesn't get the best out of what might otherwise be very good form.
That's what the peep sight does for you
 

jerryRTD

Well-known member
I would imagine that a slight relaxing will allow the string to push the fingers aside. Archers who try to relax the fingers, by attempting to straighten them, will find the string pushes hard against a stiff set of fingers. They are in conflict with each other, and the string is never going to lose that battle.
As to needing to know any more.... not sure about MORE so much as Better.??
I think that is true Jerry. What pre conditions would be beneficial/ What are best avoided?
At full draw anchor, in correct alignment aim steady pin on the gold
Best avoided. anything that stops you getting to that point in your shot sequence.
 

geoffretired

Supporter
Supporter
At the point where the archer is at anchor, in line and pin on the gold( or X?) there is still the chance that all may not finish well.
I notice this in myself and in other archers.
 

KidCurry

Well-known member
AIUK Saviour
At the point where the archer is at anchor, in line and pin on the gold( or X?) there is still the chance that all may not finish well.
I notice this in myself and in other archers.
Yes, if alignment includes good muscle engagement the only thing that can go wrong, at this point, is a poor release. I would say keeping the pin in the ten ring is important for compound but not so important for recurve.
 

KidCurry

Well-known member
AIUK Saviour
I think there are things that need to be in place so the mind doesn't wander.
The work required to get to a point in form where your draw, alignment, muscle engagement, release are all working very well, means you are probably not an archer that suffers from 'wandering mind syndrome' :) I think the biggest problem in archery is that when training/learning your mind can be trying to monitor a number different form activities at the same time. When you try to focus on one element the others go to pot.
I tend to see this quite a lot with archers being coached. The coach will highlight one form error then a few shots later raise another or are trying to sort out three or more trainee errors at the same same.
 

KidCurry

Well-known member
AIUK Saviour
I think you are right; but what do we do for those who do suffer from it?
Focus on one element at a time. Repeat it until it becomes subconscious, then move on to the next. During lockdown I spent 12 weeks working on improving my alignment and muscle engagement. Now I'm happy with that I can work on my shot execution without thinking about alignment. It was pointed out my bow hand position is changing slightly from shot to shot but that will wait until I have my shot execution burnt into the subconscious. I suspect another couple of months before I move to bow hand position, if I'm still shooting.
 

geoffretired

Supporter
Supporter
Heehee. I would have answered my own question in the same way.
I follow the thinking; I coach in much the same way, but I have my limitations. Does the loop of things to focus on ever reach a stage where there is one essential aspect that most of the best archers will focus on?
 

KidCurry

Well-known member
AIUK Saviour
Heehee. I would have answered my own question in the same way.
I follow the thinking; I coach in much the same way, but I have my limitations. Does the loop of things to focus on ever reach a stage where there is one essential aspect that most of the best archers will focus on?
When I was really good at compound I focused on nothing. The whole process becomes subconscious. Sometimes things will cut into that emptiness. If I picked up a thread of conversation before walking to the line I would sometimes catch myself thinking about it during aiming. Or the wind would blow me off aim and grab my attention, or something in the way the alignment wasn't quite right. All these things cut into that emptiness as they are out of place and need attention, but when all goes as trained there is just nothing but the shot, as though it is a dream.
 
Top