who would stand up

not dead yet

New member
Ironman
who would be prepared to stand up in front (not alone ) of GNAS coaching group. and tell them exactly where they are going wrong, or what you need from coaching.

ideally this should come from MB's and above but shall we say bowmen (bowpersons) and above.

as thats where i believe the issues start.

and would you be prepared to go to lilleshall. as a group. or for your county / club. with your supporting notes
 


The Meggy

New member
Obviously your entitled to your opinion but I'm not sure I agree there are any significant problems with the GNAS coaching group. For the majority of non-elite archers in the UK, their coaching will come via their local club coach. If there are problems at this level, I'm not sure what the coaching group could do about it. Maybe any such problems should be tackled within the club concerned. Personally I like the coaches in my club and think they do a great job. Also, I think the new "the way of the champion" DVD is excellent, and a great way for the elite archers/coaching group to reach out to the rest of the membership.
 


not dead yet

New member
Ironman
sorry the meggy i'm not talking at club level.

its the higher end of the archery fraternaty that doesn't get coached by coaches. or the very few.

what i'm looking at is why the majority of bowmen upwards are coached by non coaches.

feed back to gnas is needed.

but thats my opinion
 


The Meggy

New member
Well I can sort of see what you mean perhaps. If you are saying that as a reasonably skilled archer, you would now like regular access to the more expert end of the coaching spectrum, then I have to agree that would be nice. However, the cost of producing such expert coaches is not inconsiderable, and then to provide them to every bowman-plus standard archer in the country is maybe just not viable. Probably there aren't close to enough coaches of the required standard in the country. I am lucky in that there is a coach at my club who's opinion I value, although I often find it is more a case of us discussing points of interest and then coming to a joint conclusion. There are, I will admit, some bad coaches about too, who should perhaps not have been able to qualify in the first place.

I would say there is a lot one can do independently too, by seeking out information from books, online, and instructional DVDs (like the new ArcheryGB one) - not to mention this forum. If we really want expert coaching though, I think we should be prepared to pay for it, and to travel to get it also. I know at least one fellow archer who has done this, and although the coaching is I'm sure not the whole story, the results speak for themselves.
 


bkupris

The American
Supporter
American Shoot
If we really want expert coaching though, I think we should be prepared to pay for it, and to travel to get it also.
I think it is just a matter of time and this will be the only option available whether it be a GNAS coach or an independent.
 


Shirt

Active member
The reason that most people above a certain level are allegedly coached by unqualifieds is because a lot of the unqualifieds are good archers in their own right, and can't be ##### to put the time in jumping through hoops to get a bit of paper that means someone else thinks they're not clueless... or am I just being more cynical than usual?

I think also there's more high level archers out there that are coached by people with the bit of paper than rumour would acknowledge. Admittedly a fair few of them might have let it lapse, but they were still accredited at some point.
 


PaulT

The American
Ironman
American Shoot
The reason that most people above a certain level are allegedly coached by unqualifieds is because a lot of the unqualifieds are good archers in their own right, and can't be ##### to put the time in jumping through hoops to get a bit of paper that means someone else thinks they're not clueless... or am I just being more cynical than usual?

.
Couldn't have put it better myself
 


Bald Eagle

New member
I think there is an issue here that has gone on for too long! IMHO, archers who want to coach should have been in the sport a minimum of 5 years. The club archer who wants to improve usually goes and seeks advice from the top archer in his club 'cos the "coach" hasn't been there, done it and got the badges like the top archer. When you have "coach" sewn on your shirt you are expected to know everything about all bows, how to set them up and get results for the archer! If you want to coach it's in your own interest to learn about different set ups, tuning, bows, one to one coaching, etc,etc. There are people out there only too willing to help. There is a kind of "snobbery" in the higher echelons of coaching where the only way is their way and that is the best way. I've known a lot of top archers who have gone to Lilleshall to be coached leave the sport because everything was wrong with their shooting!! These guys were GMB, how can you change a GMB's style, why would you, I've always said you have to assess the individual and work on what's best for him, no two people are the same, unless you are Korean!!
 


grimsby archer

New member
IMHO, archers who want to coach should have been in the sport a minimum of 5 years. !!
That kind of limit will probably take out a high percentage of candidate coaches. I agree there should be a minimum level of experience to be a candidate coach, but theoretically the coach assessments should enforce that level of experience. In practise, that is just not happening, or the standard is too low.

We also have to remember that there are several levels of coach for very good reason. It is not reasonable to expect ALL coaches to be MBs, capable of coaching MB will 5 years of experience. The Level1 coaches are expected to teach beginners AND NOT GMBs!!!!!
Coaches have to start somewhere. Coaching is a skill, like shooting the bow. We learn as beginners, develop that skill, hopefully with the aid and assistance of more experienced people. Some never improve.


Other than being constantly told how ALL GNAS COACHES ARE CRAP - which is evidently not true, because I'm not crap,
my biggest bugbear as a qualified coach of some years is the lack of support for coaches within the coaching system.
As a coach I would like to tell GNAS that I crave greater opportunity to develop and improve my skills as a coach. Most coaches get NO support at all and are left to "get on with it". Apart from the once a year, massively oversubscribed national coaching conference, the opportunity to work with and learn from more experienced coaches and higher quality archers IS NON EXISTANT.

Coaching should filter down from the top. Peter Suk should be teaching/working with the national coaches who should be passing the knowledge, skills and techniques down the tree to the regionals, county, club and level1 coaches.
Until this happens, the standard of coaching in this country WILL NOT IMPROVE other than in a piecemeal fashion.

So to answer NDY's question, I would be prepared to stand up infront of GNAS coaching group and tell them what I need from coaching as a coach. Anyone want to join me?
 


Murray

The American
Ironman
American Shoot
Lets keep it on topic and not turn this into yet another "GNAS coaches are great" or "GNAS coaches are cr*p" thread... please?. Pretty please?

GA has at least answered the question!

I wouldn't but then in the last year I have been coached by up to 5 different GNAS coaches and a couple of non-GNAS coaches, and feel my needs are adequately met within the skills of the individuals concerned. My issue is sometimes too many varying ideas which I then have to filter out and make my own best judgment of what is and isnt appropriate.

One of the GNAS coaches I work with is also the National Coaching Officer (Education) and I'm sure he'd be willing to discuss the proposals for obtaining and coordinating feedback from the membership in the form of a coaching review.
 


bkupris

The American
Supporter
American Shoot
Apart from the once a year, massively oversubscribed national coaching conference, the opportunity to work with and learn from more experienced coaches and higher quality archers IS NON EXISTANT.
I have already made this point to my mentor, I hope he has passed it on through the appropriate channels.

Developing level 2/3 coaches should have access to squad training. Even if it is in the capacity of - sit down, keep your mouth closed and OBSERVE.

No I am not interested in a bun fight at Lilleshal :)
 


Murray

The American
Ironman
American Shoot
A good structured approach to deliver the "GNAS standard" coaching methodology might be good (although I know it would be ignored by a stalwart few old-school who would simply poo-poo the ideas and methodologies).

As for opportunities to work with coaches and top archers. Isn't there a certain onus on the COACH to go and get this knowledge and experience for themselves rather than everything being delivered by the organisation?

Examples from Scotland (only a GNAS region of course):
1. 2 scottish coaches and I attended the FITA coaching conference in Korea last year. Where were the rest of you?? (Just kidding, I know the expense is prohibitive)
2. Info from this was disseminated at the Scottish Coaching Conference ( a relatively new event)
3. Coaches from each of the areas of Scotland (East/West/North) have been at Scottish Squad working with Lana and Simon for the last couple of years.
4. I have attended one coach training weekend as a "tame but experienced" archer to speak to coaches and act as guinea pig... sometimes someone just needs to ask.

In terms of item 1 - I've been asked on a few occasions.."how did you get to go to that??". The answer is simple - A. I make sure I'm aware of what's going on in the world of archery. B. I applied to go. C. I booked the flights and went. Not so difficult really, but others made it seem like some kind of secret mission I'd been on. The onus is on the individual to make the effort.

And now that an "official" DVD has been launched, surely this is just the start of a range of initiatives to improve coaching, led by Ollie Holt (See Archery UK for some insights to what's going on).

There's more information here GNAS 2007 Coach Development Conference CD - Conference Materials from the 2007 coach development conference - particularly Ollie's vision for the future.

It might be useful for coaches to make themselves aware of what is happening in the wider world and out their hand up to get involved if they feel there is insufficient mechanisms for personal and professional development?

Just an idea.
 


Wildcat

Member
I as a coach, would also be interested in sitting in on squad training to see how they go about things. And like you said I would also be quite prepared to sit down and shut up while training is taking place. Any questions I have could be put to the coaches over dinner or in the social networking lounge (Bar) at night.
With CPD now coming in to renewing coaching certificates all coaches will now need to do other things rather than just attend their club. Which I think is a good thing, as the coach will gain new knowledge that will help the coach to develop into a better coach. (as no one knows everything even though some might think they do).

To help GNAS/Archery UK could organise regular area coaching events so that coaches could go and get up to date information and information on squad training techniques.

I would not be interested in going to Lilleshal due to distance and costs involved. One of the reasons I am suggesting things should be done at area level.
 


73miss

New member
Murray - Couldnt agree more

Its out there - you just have to ask and if coaches (or archers) want this sort of stuff then I agree that they should be more pro-active in their approach.

I spent a brilliant weekend with the Junior squad at Lilleshall earlier in the year. I just talked to the PU, said I was interested in what they got up to and could I come along. Easy really.

Apparently they are a bit busy at the moment with some big tournament in August but I have been told that once it is over there should be no problem with me joining one of the Senior camps as well.

As far as I can tell there are still places for the coach Kim thing that is happening after the conference in November.

The opportunities are out there - they just need to be searched out.

Andy
 


J

John (OSF)

Guest
This topic just goes round and round. It's great to see that people still care enough to try and improve the system. Sad thing is there's no point in talking to people that are 'deaf' to any suggestions other than their own.

A few months back I suggested that the scottish coaches (the active ones that actually coach!) met in a constructive way (not a blazer/drinkie'fest) and it was slammed. So at the moment any 'real' activities (that involve us improving and helping each other share strenghts etc.) seem impossible.
imo Changes are required at senior level of coaching (in scotland anyway) for it to have any chance to progress in a meaningful way, due to the strong personality cults that exist and the unquestioning support of their sychophantic 'clones'

Good luck if you're trying to change things.. (you'll need it ) .

That's all I'll be saying on this (I'll really try :)) :beer:
 


J

John (OSF)

Guest
As a coach I would like to tell GNAS that I crave greater opportunity to develop and improve my skills as a coach. Most coaches get NO support at all and are left to "get on with it". Apart from the once a year, massively oversubscribed national coaching conference, the opportunity to work with and learn from more experienced coaches and higher quality archers IS NON EXISTANT.
I know we don't agree GA but.....Well said!
 


grimsby archer

New member
As for opportunities to work with coaches and top archers. Isn't there a certain onus on the COACH to go and get this knowledge and experience for themselves rather than everything being delivered by the organisation?

Not so difficult really, but others made it seem like some kind of secret mission I'd been on. The onus is on the individual to make the effort.

It might be useful for coaches to make themselves aware of what is happening in the wider world and out their hand up to get involved if they feel there is insufficient mechanisms for personal and professional development?
Since the GNAS Coaching system wants better coaches, wouldnt it be common sense for those in the know to share information and make access to relevant event easier for those who are (or might be) interested?

It is about being in the right "circles" but if you arent in those circles to start with and dont have the right contacts, sometimes it IS like a secret mission!

I have been a coach for 4 years and have asked for support and info about events continually. I had been a coach for 2 years before I heard about the national coaching conference, to discover again that unless you were in the right circle, you were unlikely to get the notice until it was too late.

My county hold 2 coaching sessions a year that I was invited to help out at :idea: and has started holding improvers sessions for level1 coaches :idea:

My region once sent out a blanket invite for coaches to attend the junior squad as "observers" :yummy: then pulled out the invite at the very last moment :hissyfit:.

I dont expect to have to track down :wide-eyed and hunt out info and events from the bottom draw of a locked filing cabinet in the locked basement at lilleshall with a sign on the door saying "danger, toxic chemicals - keep out":raspberry

This is what the internet is for, isnt it?
 


not dead yet

New member
Ironman
as i see it so far... thanks all for being constructive for once. i know i go of on one regarding coaching .but we got something going here now.

I think there is an issue here that has gone on for too long! IMHO, archers who want to coach should have been in the sport a minimum of 5 years. The club archer who wants to improve usually goes and seeks advice from the top archer in his club 'cos the "coach" hasn't been there, done it and got the badges like the top archer. When you have "coach" sewn on your shirt you are expected to know everything about all bows, how to set them up and get results for the archer! If you want to coach it's in your own interest to learn about different set ups, tuning, bows, one to one coaching, etc,etc. There are people out there only too willing to help. There is a kind of "snobbery" in the higher echelons of coaching where the only way is their way and that is the best way. I've known a lot of top archers who have gone to Lilleshall to be coached leave the sport because everything was wrong with their shooting!! These guys were GMB, how can you change a GMB's style, why would you, I've always said you have to assess the individual and work on what's best for him, no two people are the same, unless you are Korean!!
this one is as i see it. min of 5 yrs or exceptional knowledge.thanks B.E.

Other than being constantly told how ALL GNAS COACHES ARE CRAP - which is evidently not true, because I'm not crap,
my biggest bugbear as a qualified coach of some years is the lack of support for coaches within the coaching system.
As a coach I would like to tell GNAS that I crave greater opportunity to develop and improve my skills as a coach. Most coaches get NO support at all and are left to "get on with it". Apart from the once a year, massively oversubscribed national coaching conference, the opportunity to work with and learn from more experienced coaches and higher quality archers IS NON EXISTANT.

this again as it is thanks G.A.

I wouldn't but then in the last year I have been coached by up to 5 different GNAS coaches and a couple of non-GNAS coaches, and feel my needs are adequately met within the skills of the individuals concerned. My issue is sometimes too many varying ideas which I then have to filter out and make my own best judgment of what is and isnt appropriate.

One of the GNAS coaches I work with is also the National Coaching Officer (Education) and I'm sure he'd be willing to discuss the proposals for obtaining and coordinating feedback from the membership in the form of a coaching review.


filtering out, is exactly what the higher level archer should be doin, like someone else said you wouldn't change the style of a GMB archer. but coaches sometimes do. i've seen it.

NCOE i would love a meeting with him.
thanks for more good imput Murray.


keep it goin people

surprised brian thinks it only worth a bun fight though.
no offence to you brian. we need to start somewhere.
if i had a meeting with a few of us there and we couldn't make headway.
well i gave it my best shot

pete
 


bkupris

The American
Supporter
American Shoot
Pete

Maybe my reply is slightly jaded with past discussions about this topic. I can see this thread, as you say, seems much more constructive :) Maybe the opportunity for what you have in mind would/could arise at the next review of the coaching levels, I don't know?? The input for the reviews should come from the coaches on the ground as well as the people putting the programme together me thinks? :beer:
 


wanshu

New member
I'm not an archery coach but have instructed thousands of people over the years in something I have done for 38 years. With most organisations the Chief instructor/coach, if employed by the organisation would spread his/her wings and have regular sessions at various venues around the whole country (2 or 3 a year)
Rather than large numbers of unpaid coaches paying out for travel/lodgings etc to attend the odd session (should be FREE). If other organisations can manage to arrange a workable structure, why is it so difficult for GNAS/Archery GB.
If I was a qualified archery coach I would be prepared to step up to the plate to push for a better system.
I agree with GA on his posting and BE on some points apart from the 5 year in archery.
Depends on the individual, one person may take 5 years to learn a number of skills and be able to apply them to others. Whilst another may take one or two years to reach the same standard as the 5 year archer. Times per week shooting and the ability to look, learn/read and adapt those skills to suit each individual when needed is more important than time shooting alone.

Coaching and coaching well is a skill and a pleasure, especially when someone you've been coaching reaches a very high standard and says thank you.
Without the odd positive from those you help and those who should acknowledge you up above, (a good structure) the fun of coaching/standards too, can slide quickly.
Coaches are the lifeblood of archery and they need to be nurtured from above, not ignored/left to their own devices. (It's here if you look hard enough, or willing to travel to aquire, is simply not good enough)
In my opinion!!
 


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