AGB in the news for the wrong reasons: "Sexual assault complaint made against coach"
- Thread starter grndkntrl
- Start date
Indeed, didn't say there was, and systems are by nature ill-suited to preventing determined, unpredictable behaviours.
Whatever the environment or situation, at root was a predator taking advantage. FPP would likely not have prevented a predator enacting the same behaviours elsewhere. Its disingenuous, and somewhat repugnant to conflate criticism of competition/performance structure and a serious assault.
Old Bloke
New member
The latest from ArcheryGB:
Archery GB conference call.
Since our last update we have received two formal complaints in connection with the incident referred to in recent media articles.
We have had legal advice that it would be inappropriate, in the light of them, to hold a conference call to update people. Regrettably, tonight’s call will therefore not take place.
We will endeavour to keep you updated here on the website as much as possible.
Archery GB conference call.
Since our last update we have received two formal complaints in connection with the incident referred to in recent media articles.
We have had legal advice that it would be inappropriate, in the light of them, to hold a conference call to update people. Regrettably, tonight’s call will therefore not take place.
We will endeavour to keep you updated here on the website as much as possible.
I rather think that in both the BBC report and the "Telegraph" it is the athlete who conflates such things;-
"The athlete has now told the BBC: “I didn’t go through with a complaint at the time because I was put in a position where it was implied by staff that I didn’t want to be the one to lose the coach his job and that I was new to the programme, and I didn’t want to risk that either.it is the athlete who claims she perceived that her position on the squad was being conflated with her acquiescence to how the situation was being handled by AGB by AGB staff.""
Perhaps you are more capable of discerning disingenuity within the athletes words than I am. I think that the disingenuity is to be found in the apparent absence of a transparent and objective policy with regard to recruitment into elite squads and policies for removal from them.
No, the situation stems from behaviour which is as probable with FPP as any other selection process.
The apparently 'toxic' environment and mishandling of the complaint are deeply troubling, and it is these which are less likely with more transparent selection processes.
The apparently 'toxic' environment and mishandling of the complaint are deeply troubling, and it is these which are less likely with more transparent selection processes.
I agree, eljetico. The thing is that AGB seem absolutely and rigidly determined not to learn from the past if it means change. We had the mishandling at Rivernook several years ago involving the incident of score fabrications from a member of the then elite junior squad. The thing is that I for one believe that the culture within that set up was as toxic as you may never hope to find and that whilst the cheating certainly came down to one young man sadly making a decision to act badly I am satisfied that it was an act of desperation to seek selection, - it was a GBR selection shoot, - in an environment of favouritism and very murky selection processes. There is possibly a disingenuity occurring though because time and time again the waters are muddied with the mishandling for a sufficiently long enough period for any out cry to die down and for things to carry on as before...until the next time.
Old Bloke
New member
Some of us on this forum will say with gratitude, thank you for your post "thinblueline". Some on this forum have been somewhat aware of what has really been going on within the P.U. over some considerable time. Some on this forum have also been well aware of the circumstances around Rivernook and some on this forum are also well aware of what discrimination is within a sport. Some on this forum might well know what it means to be an associate member to World Archery and of the rules laid down to protect the integrity of an Olympic sport. You say it is just the tip of the iceberg, I've no doubt. You also say a rough time for 6 months, well it might be two years if AGB are suspended from being an associate to World Archery.
Thank you for your post thinblueline, keep the faith and simply do the right thing.
Thank you for your post thinblueline, keep the faith and simply do the right thing.
"The fathers suck the sour seeds that put the children's teeth on edge" Jamaican proverb.
Thinblueline, for some odd reason your post was not seen by me when I replied to Eljetico. I obviously cannot vouchsafe the veracity of your post above other than to say that I recognise much of what you write from my own dealings with AGB officials, - Chairman, CEO, Coaches etc at Lillishall several years ago. One thing I am gladdened to read in your post is that you say that the athletes did initiate action. In that event they are deserving of respect. Unfortunately, under the type of conditions that you have described I would find it hard to understand how UK Sport can do anything else right now other than to suspend any payments to AGB. I also take the point raised by William Tells. WA must surely be looking closely at this themselves. Would I be surprised if your description of things at AGB HQ proves to be faithful and accurate; No I would not. Nevertheless, it is a stark and shocking description of things inside a GBR Olympic sport.
Thinblueline, for some odd reason your post was not seen by me when I replied to Eljetico. I obviously cannot vouchsafe the veracity of your post above other than to say that I recognise much of what you write from my own dealings with AGB officials, - Chairman, CEO, Coaches etc at Lillishall several years ago. One thing I am gladdened to read in your post is that you say that the athletes did initiate action. In that event they are deserving of respect. Unfortunately, under the type of conditions that you have described I would find it hard to understand how UK Sport can do anything else right now other than to suspend any payments to AGB. I also take the point raised by William Tells. WA must surely be looking closely at this themselves. Would I be surprised if your description of things at AGB HQ proves to be faithful and accurate; No I would not. Nevertheless, it is a stark and shocking description of things inside a GBR Olympic sport.
thinblueline I recognise much of what you are saying. I can add that tactics like "forgetting" to send emails about training dates can be used. When that is challenged emails are received but with incorrect dates, etc. etc. It is not difficult to make life hard for anyone who is considered as undesirable. It is not difficult to understand that undesirable can mean those who will not comply with the unwritten rules or who have the strength of character to stand up and challenge such things openly. If verified, the allegations you make really devalues all GBR shirts for some considerable time into the past. In fact it makes a mockery of them I think, don't you? And that is pertinent to what I wish to say because I am more concerned about you. Seriously, I think one of the gravest dangers to anyone who has been the victim, or considers themselves to be a victim of abuse or discrimination is the potential for harm to their own mental well being. It is not a good idea to repeatedly bang your head against a brick wall but if you must then wear a crash helmet. 
Yes you are strong but the wall is pretty robust as well. In all good faith, this thread may not be the best place for you to air this. I wish you well and hope you understand that if things in L are as you say they are then you have lost nothing and retained your own integrity which is everything. I hope you consider talking these things through with professional advisors.
Yes you are strong but the wall is pretty robust as well. In all good faith, this thread may not be the best place for you to air this. I wish you well and hope you understand that if things in L are as you say they are then you have lost nothing and retained your own integrity which is everything. I hope you consider talking these things through with professional advisors.
Old Bloke
New member
"thinblueline", I would suggest quite strongly that you speak to professional bodies that are set up to look into the concerns you have and who will offer support in many ways. There are some on this forum who will genuinely feel for you and understand exactly where you are, but there are times when a public forum is not a very friendly place and to this I would suggest you seek professional counsel as soon as possible. The support is out there and it is very good, please for the sake of yourself and maybe others, make good use of it.
Bullying takes on many different forms and when you consider the age of the people that are subject to this and what their ambitions are it is easy for bullies to exert their control. I am an old(ish) man who will never become anything in the sporting world so it will prove impossible to bully me but if I were young, had a real chance of achieving something but that achievement required me to pass through a particular regimen that included bullying I wonder whether I would endure it to get to where I wanted to be. The bullies in this level of the sports world have enormous power, they can drop you from the programme even when your output is measuably better than many around you so it would be very difficult to resist.
Also, in more physical aspects of training there has to be an element of pushing people beyond what is comfortable and it can lead to people taking advantage of this, look at the army and what is called beasting. At its mildest it is purely discipline and pushing people to their natural limts, at its worst it is ritual humiliation, discrimination, physical and mental abuse etc. Theoretically their is a hierarchy that stops the setting of necessary discipline from turning into abuse but in our context there never was the same imperative from the outset and if these was then the goals have been badly set. It should be recognition and development, not forcing people to reach a certain threshold in a particular time.
In short AGB ad others have been blinded by their own vision of great things ahead and have missed what is going on around them and because they have taken the money they feel the need to make their paymasters happy regardless of how that can be achieved.
The misappropriation of funds to pay for travel of other members of the party is not new either, I know it used to happen in my old sport of shooting and i'm sure that any sport that one would consider a minority sport suffers from it to a certain degree. but this also skews the selection process and the allocation of funding to individuals.
So, when it comes to internal enquiries it is very difficult for those charged with investigating the behaviour of those who the same people have bought in to actually do so in a dispassionate way becuse their reputations and salaries are dependant upon the result. If you have signed off some tour expenses knowing that your paid appointee has not paid their own share then how can you then discipline them later for doing just that?
In short we need an interim governing body to manage the organisation whilst a proper external investigation is allowed Achieving this will prove a very difficult task as we agreed to give up our rights to manage our affairs a couple of years ago
Also, in more physical aspects of training there has to be an element of pushing people beyond what is comfortable and it can lead to people taking advantage of this, look at the army and what is called beasting. At its mildest it is purely discipline and pushing people to their natural limts, at its worst it is ritual humiliation, discrimination, physical and mental abuse etc. Theoretically their is a hierarchy that stops the setting of necessary discipline from turning into abuse but in our context there never was the same imperative from the outset and if these was then the goals have been badly set. It should be recognition and development, not forcing people to reach a certain threshold in a particular time.
In short AGB ad others have been blinded by their own vision of great things ahead and have missed what is going on around them and because they have taken the money they feel the need to make their paymasters happy regardless of how that can be achieved.
The misappropriation of funds to pay for travel of other members of the party is not new either, I know it used to happen in my old sport of shooting and i'm sure that any sport that one would consider a minority sport suffers from it to a certain degree. but this also skews the selection process and the allocation of funding to individuals.
So, when it comes to internal enquiries it is very difficult for those charged with investigating the behaviour of those who the same people have bought in to actually do so in a dispassionate way becuse their reputations and salaries are dependant upon the result. If you have signed off some tour expenses knowing that your paid appointee has not paid their own share then how can you then discipline them later for doing just that?
In short we need an interim governing body to manage the organisation whilst a proper external investigation is allowed Achieving this will prove a very difficult task as we agreed to give up our rights to manage our affairs a couple of years ago
backinblack
Active member
Thin Blue Line,
Please don't think that I'm unsympathetic to your plight. I'm a club archer who has, and wants, nothing to do with AGB beyond paying my annual subs so I can be insured and shoot at my local field, so I have no vested interest in trying to shoot you down.
However, if your allegations are capable of being substantiated through documentary evidence and there is no chance of a defamation suit, why haven't you been to the press with this before now? By coming on here anonymously, you are not adding credence to your allegations. Furthermore, you are pretty much preaching to the converted and could do a greater service to yourself, and those other people affected by these circumstances, by airing them more publicly.
Please accept my best wishes in achieving a satisfactory outcome to this situation and I hope you continue to enjoy your shooting.
Kind regards,
Backinblack
Please don't think that I'm unsympathetic to your plight. I'm a club archer who has, and wants, nothing to do with AGB beyond paying my annual subs so I can be insured and shoot at my local field, so I have no vested interest in trying to shoot you down.
However, if your allegations are capable of being substantiated through documentary evidence and there is no chance of a defamation suit, why haven't you been to the press with this before now? By coming on here anonymously, you are not adding credence to your allegations. Furthermore, you are pretty much preaching to the converted and could do a greater service to yourself, and those other people affected by these circumstances, by airing them more publicly.
Please accept my best wishes in achieving a satisfactory outcome to this situation and I hope you continue to enjoy your shooting.
Kind regards,
Backinblack
Munsterman
Active member
Firstly, let me say to ThinBlueLine that what was described is abhorrent and should have no place in this or any sport. I agree with BackinBlack. Go public. This forum is a very limited circulation medium. While largely populated with genuinely interested archery fans, it has its fair share of wolves in sheeps clothing that will take and twist your terrible story for their own selfish ends. Predators can be virtual too. Look into those who are reacting to your posts. Most will be genuinely concerned but don't be surprised if you see your words twisted by some to advance an unrelated or at best tenuously linked agenda in the future.
I wish you the very best and if making your story known results in tearing AGB a new one for the long term benefit of all, then so be it. Stay strong.
I wish you the very best and if making your story known results in tearing AGB a new one for the long term benefit of all, then so be it. Stay strong.
Sorry, but this isn't a sex specific problem. I can point to case after case after case of Women in positions of authority who have committed similar crimes. It's not a sex issue but a "crappy person being in a position of authority" issue.
The problem is cultural. I am certain that these issues have been endemic, institutionalised within the NGB hierarchy for a very long time. What few checks and balances that do exist have been subverted to protect the "ruling elite" rather than the integrity of the sport. I have been saying for years on this forum that to go through AGB procedures, like Complaints, is as to sit at a poker table and play against a stacked deck. One "crappy person" might have brought the whole organisation down but it has been a crappy organisation don't you think? There are those who will continue to live in denial and who will continue to peddle the snake oil. The mountebanks will probably assure that all is well, that this is just the abhorrent aberrant behaviour of one individual and that AGB is making great strides forward. I really struggle to see how AGB can come back from this. If the depictions of things at L that are painted by thinblueline are accurate then I wait with interest to see if external authorities have to demolish the structure or if the membership themselves have enough integrity to do it themselves.
I don't think it is a question of enough integrity, I think it is a question of knowing how to do it. I'm sure 99.9% of the membership will not be happy with AGB if the allegations in this thread are proven true, but I doubt many will know what to do about it. Can archery GB come back from this? I haven't seen any facts at all beyond a BBC news report. I dare say facts will follow but it's too earlly to predict AGB's future.
Question still outstanding.
Munsterman
Active member
Exactly. Just yesterday the ACF were in the news for abuse, and the MOD indicated that there were 100s of allegations. What organisation, church or state is untainted? As bad as it seems, I don't think that AGB is exceptional in this respect and fortunately is likely to lag in terms of the institutionalised scale of the problem. It should be easier to correct as a result but it doesn't in any way diminish the shameful way you have been treated.
By the way, I commend your openness in sharing your story and standing behind it. Others haver made unsubstantiated allegations on here and have been unable to back it up when questioned. It makes your position and standing all the more credible. Thank you!
Not "unable", Munsterman. I do not wish to appear rude but your scrutiny of any supporting evidence that I may be able to give is not requested or desired. I have simply been pointing out on this forum for many years that there are some serious problems with the sport and its culture. Similarly, I was also informing you for a number of years that as a consequence of these issues the sport would be unlikely to send full teams to Rio for the 2016 Olympics and that it was in imminent danger of having its UK Sport funding removed. One of us knows what he is talking about and readers are more than welcome to determine for themselves that it is you. (After all, you do have the credentials being a qualified AGB coach and all). Meanwhile the sport continues on its merry way down the pan, so to speak. (To have lost one form of UK Sport Olympic funding might ordinarily have been considered as unfortunate but honestly, even to imagine that the prospect now exists that the UK Sport Para Olympic funding may be called into question or at risk just leaves one incredulous. I thought AGB existed to promote target archery as a competitive sport, it would seem that I may be wrong).
Munsterman mitigates the issues raised by thinblueline by telling us that it is far worse everywhere else because AGB lags behind everywhere else and so it will be easier to put things right, so if any reader really wants to understand how AGB got itself to where it is I suggest that would be a good place to start.
Munsterman mitigates the issues raised by thinblueline by telling us that it is far worse everywhere else because AGB lags behind everywhere else and so it will be easier to put things right, so if any reader really wants to understand how AGB got itself to where it is I suggest that would be a good place to start.