Thanks for some great help guys. Based on your advice I bought some 2315 Plats today and shot a 570 Portsmouth with them this evening. I too thought that the balance of the Tribute was very weight forward (certainly compared to the recurve) but not having shot any other compounds before I thought this was a common thing with compounds, I'll have a play around with weights and try for a better balance. Although the bow is 50lb-60lb I was surprised to find that on a shop's scales it measured 46lb (Pete had wound it down as far as it would go before I bought it), we upped the weight to 51lb and thats how I shot it this evening. Dont think I'll be going any higher for a while although I seem to remember reading somewhere that Bowtechs perform better nearer their max draw weight.
Compound Help Needed
- Thread starter SLOWHAND
- Start date
Marcus26
Well-known member
I'm hoping to experiment with some Doinker kit now that Vibracheck have been bought by PSE and gone from a decent company to a terrible one. (sorry Jay, not your fault)
The Fat Free rod I am using contains a gel pack in the back of it, so is actually back weighted.
The rod with weights is 720mm and the balence point is at the 400mm from the back part.
By contrast a Doinker carbon rod of the same length balences 490mm from the back. So my setup is a far more neutral setup than most.
The Fat Free rod I am using contains a gel pack in the back of it, so is actually back weighted.
The rod with weights is 720mm and the balence point is at the 400mm from the back part.
By contrast a Doinker carbon rod of the same length balences 490mm from the back. So my setup is a far more neutral setup than most.
Swaledale
New member
Slow hand
Marcus is generally considered to be the ultimate authority here but I and others have found that when aiming, holding rigidly on gold is no guarantee of a result.
A large ring in your sight allows plenty of sight around the custard it also permits you to see clearly what you want to hit.
If you were in a room and noticed a particularly attractive young lady walking past the window would you notice the window, even if it were an old fashioned one with plenty of panes?.....no you wouldn't. So look at what you wish to hit, the sight is a guide only. You have already said that the bow is heavy in the hand and so do you really think that it can be held rigid? even our guru Marcus were he to put a laser on his bow and expect to keep it still would be disappointed. You must learn to clear your mind of any thought what so ever, see what you want to hit and do so. Can you sit on your own and for just thirty seconds have absolutely no thoughts at all? I doubt it. Our minds are constantly chattering away to us all the time and learning to clear this extraneous background noise is fundamental to the perfect shot. So practise your technique until it is automatic and at the same time learn to empty your mind. You must have noticed the odd shot that felt really good but was not precisely on gold but ripped out the ten when loosed?
There you have it, use the force Luke, the subconscious is so much more accurate than the conscious.
We could talk further on how this can be done if you wish.
Marcus is generally considered to be the ultimate authority here but I and others have found that when aiming, holding rigidly on gold is no guarantee of a result.
A large ring in your sight allows plenty of sight around the custard it also permits you to see clearly what you want to hit.
If you were in a room and noticed a particularly attractive young lady walking past the window would you notice the window, even if it were an old fashioned one with plenty of panes?.....no you wouldn't. So look at what you wish to hit, the sight is a guide only. You have already said that the bow is heavy in the hand and so do you really think that it can be held rigid? even our guru Marcus were he to put a laser on his bow and expect to keep it still would be disappointed. You must learn to clear your mind of any thought what so ever, see what you want to hit and do so. Can you sit on your own and for just thirty seconds have absolutely no thoughts at all? I doubt it. Our minds are constantly chattering away to us all the time and learning to clear this extraneous background noise is fundamental to the perfect shot. So practise your technique until it is automatic and at the same time learn to empty your mind. You must have noticed the odd shot that felt really good but was not precisely on gold but ripped out the ten when loosed?
There you have it, use the force Luke, the subconscious is so much more accurate than the conscious.
We could talk further on how this can be done if you wish.
Marcus26
Well-known member
Hardly the ultimate authority Swedale, I am passing on what I have learnt and always have time to read and learn from posts by top shooters such as Adam and greydog (who both would beat me, as do many other shooters) as well as the experiance of developing archers and what they are finding.
I have played with circles for years, but have found I aim tighter and score higher with a small dot. What the **** is wrong with saying that?
I have also used lasers a number of times in training and know too well how much it moves.
Perhaps I should consult you before offering my experiance on such things in the future.
:thumbsdow
I have played with circles for years, but have found I aim tighter and score higher with a small dot. What the **** is wrong with saying that?
I have also used lasers a number of times in training and know too well how much it moves.
Perhaps I should consult you before offering my experiance on such things in the future.
:thumbsdow
M
Moose
Guest
Small dot
I always used a large dot but when I bought a beiter aiming kit I thought I would try all the different combinations.
I found that with a large dot I got a larger group but with the tiny dot I got a smaller group.
Now I am not saying this is true for all, just me, I do not like the small dot it just does not seem right in my head that I can put it in the middle but it does go in the middle and it works for me.
So try a few things even change dot size for differnt distances if it helps.
I always used a large dot but when I bought a beiter aiming kit I thought I would try all the different combinations.
I found that with a large dot I got a larger group but with the tiny dot I got a smaller group.
Now I am not saying this is true for all, just me, I do not like the small dot it just does not seem right in my head that I can put it in the middle but it does go in the middle and it works for me.
So try a few things even change dot size for differnt distances if it helps.
weight forwards
Last nights club (weds)a friend and myself dedcided to try a few ends, both of us shooting Tribute's without any long rod at all and at twenty yards, were surprised to find that it didnt make any difference as far as scoring was concerned, and that the bow actually sat better in the hand and "felt"a lot steadier, which is contrary to what I had come to expect, I am not advocating slinging the long rod in the bin, just putting down what did happen :cheerful:
Hi slowhand, I own two compounds, one is an oldie a hoyt striker Mk1, which as a bare bow held in the hand sit's neutral, it drops neither forwards nor backwards, however the tribute, as you observe tilts when held as a bare bow
Last nights club (weds)a friend and myself dedcided to try a few ends, both of us shooting Tribute's without any long rod at all and at twenty yards, were surprised to find that it didnt make any difference as far as scoring was concerned, and that the bow actually sat better in the hand and "felt"a lot steadier, which is contrary to what I had come to expect, I am not advocating slinging the long rod in the bin, just putting down what did happen :cheerful:
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Swaledale
New member
Marcus
I think you have misunderstood me and have taken my post as some form of personal criticism , if so I apologise profusely for it was not meant to be so in any shape or form indeed I have personally asked for your thoughts in the past. So when I say that you are the ultimate authority perhaps I should have said authoritative. After all most who post here do actively seek your opinion. Equally I was merely proposing an alternative for someone who has issues with mass weight as indeed I have and may also have problems with seeking to hold hard on the centre. There are no blanket answers to any issue as most single problems are often symptomatic of several hidden and compounded faults.
Once again I did not intend to cast doubt or contest your observations in any way.
I trust this puts the apparent contention to rest and I hope we can continue to discus issues in the future without misinterpretation.
I think you have misunderstood me and have taken my post as some form of personal criticism , if so I apologise profusely for it was not meant to be so in any shape or form indeed I have personally asked for your thoughts in the past. So when I say that you are the ultimate authority perhaps I should have said authoritative. After all most who post here do actively seek your opinion. Equally I was merely proposing an alternative for someone who has issues with mass weight as indeed I have and may also have problems with seeking to hold hard on the centre. There are no blanket answers to any issue as most single problems are often symptomatic of several hidden and compounded faults.
Once again I did not intend to cast doubt or contest your observations in any way.
I trust this puts the apparent contention to rest and I hope we can continue to discus issues in the future without misinterpretation.
Having read this thread I took off some of the end weight from my Beiter (Lead Tape) that was on there from when I used it on the cybertec, and I think it felt a little steadier, I have a side bar with its own threaded adapter for mounting the V-Bar, looking at Marcus's Picture gave me an idea, I am going the try mounting the V-Bar at the rear of the riser instead of between riser and long rod, to see if it helps get a more neutral feel to the bow, will let you know if it works, it may look a little wierd :cheerful:.
Swaledale, I agree with your comments on archery and the "alternative" approach. There is good to be gained from reading the different inputs and taking out what works best for the individual. I felt it important to add my part to this thread as I admire your latest post for its honesty and good grace.( I hope that doesn't sound too stuffy.) We don't often get disagreements on this forum. The moderators rarely need to step in. It is people who respond, like you did, who make this a safe place to air opinions without fear.
The aim is not as simple as it would seem. Many beginners tend to think it is just a matter of pointing the sight at the gold. Then they start shooting and struggle with holding the sight still. This thread has drawn out some fascinating insights into the processes we go through to gain good results. Some equipment changes can bring better results; some form changes can do the same.
Much has already been said about the bits that are nearer the target than the archer's drawing shoulder. I would just add that much steadiness in the aim can be lost when the drawing elbow is suffering from the shakes. This is often most noticeable with a recurve archer who is timid with the clicker. With compounds it tends to be less noticeable, but hesitant use of the drawing elbow can send shakes/wobbles to the bow arm and then into the sight.
Much has already been said about the bits that are nearer the target than the archer's drawing shoulder. I would just add that much steadiness in the aim can be lost when the drawing elbow is suffering from the shakes. This is often most noticeable with a recurve archer who is timid with the clicker. With compounds it tends to be less noticeable, but hesitant use of the drawing elbow can send shakes/wobbles to the bow arm and then into the sight.
M
Moose
Guest
Holding too long
Most new compound archers hold the bow at full draw for far to long because it feels light and they can but as soon as you draw the bow and put the muscles under strain they start to tire and the longer you hold the more chance of the shakes.
Coaches should teach novice compound archers not to over concentrate on aiming with practice the sight will settle down quickly because the brain does not like the wobbles it will automatically do what is needed to settle the sight but if you try to concentrate on it you are trying to control the bow in manual.
Other problems with sight shake come from this push pull lark where people insist on pushing the bow down the range with all their strength and then try to stop it by trying to pull through the wall. If the bow is well balanced by the push / pull and not overly done your muscles can do their job if you put to much tension in them they will shake and so will the sight.
well it works for me, might work for others?
Most new compound archers hold the bow at full draw for far to long because it feels light and they can but as soon as you draw the bow and put the muscles under strain they start to tire and the longer you hold the more chance of the shakes.
Coaches should teach novice compound archers not to over concentrate on aiming with practice the sight will settle down quickly because the brain does not like the wobbles it will automatically do what is needed to settle the sight but if you try to concentrate on it you are trying to control the bow in manual.
Other problems with sight shake come from this push pull lark where people insist on pushing the bow down the range with all their strength and then try to stop it by trying to pull through the wall. If the bow is well balanced by the push / pull and not overly done your muscles can do their job if you put to much tension in them they will shake and so will the sight.
well it works for me, might work for others?
Archers-Rest
New member
greydog
New member
I'm with Marcus on the dot vs circle issue, I've experimented with dots and circles mainly because of others claiming the circle is better and lets your subconcious do the aiming etc But the problems I found were that the circle needs to be the correct size for the distance you are shooting, fine indoors at one distance, but can give you problems if you are covering a range of distances, for example on a gents fita from 90m down to 30m.
It would seem to work well for recurves I think mainly because they aren't using a magnifying lens, and so aren't as concious of small movements.
The width of the circle needed to be correct for your lens too, as a thin line on a higher power scope can almost disappear when aiming. Though this also applies to dots, as I'm guessing you have discovered, Moose. Too small and it feels you have to fight it into the middle, too big and there is always that doubt that you are getting the most accuracy from it. The more powerful the magnification of your scope, the bigger the dot you'll need as the magnification makes the dot appear smaller................if that makes sense
Christopher Lee
New member
Marcus and Greydog,
I didn't go through all the pages on this thread, so I picked up on the most recent post.
I have been experimenting with a range of easily changed out custom apetures, much like what olympic rifle shooters have.
Within seconds, I have the precise size I like for any distance/sized target. So far, I've been experimenting with choosing apetures that are just a little larger than the entire gold area for all targets/dis, and this appears to be working well...so far! LOL!
I'll report back if anyone is interested/once I've fine-tuned the system.
Also, back to recurve turned compound archers ... recently, I've been helping a Coach with ine of his students. Same situation. Basically, what I did was start him off working on seperate areas - seperately. Release techniques on a rope loop, and once all the equipment came together, SPTs and only recently has the student started blank baleing with a scope, but no lens. Just a tinted plastic disc used by opticians with alignment holes and a central cut-out.
I find that by not introducing any magnification, it helps the student not get flustered by the 'dot not holding steady on the gold' issues until his form, proper muscle usage and strength is built up.
I'm no means a top level archer, but with your kind assistance as well as others, I have seen some steady improvements in my form and technique ... so I'm just helping to pass it on.
CHEERS!
I didn't go through all the pages on this thread, so I picked up on the most recent post.
I have been experimenting with a range of easily changed out custom apetures, much like what olympic rifle shooters have.
Within seconds, I have the precise size I like for any distance/sized target. So far, I've been experimenting with choosing apetures that are just a little larger than the entire gold area for all targets/dis, and this appears to be working well...so far! LOL!
I'll report back if anyone is interested/once I've fine-tuned the system.
Also, back to recurve turned compound archers ... recently, I've been helping a Coach with ine of his students. Same situation. Basically, what I did was start him off working on seperate areas - seperately. Release techniques on a rope loop, and once all the equipment came together, SPTs and only recently has the student started blank baleing with a scope, but no lens. Just a tinted plastic disc used by opticians with alignment holes and a central cut-out.
I find that by not introducing any magnification, it helps the student not get flustered by the 'dot not holding steady on the gold' issues until his form, proper muscle usage and strength is built up.
I'm no means a top level archer, but with your kind assistance as well as others, I have seen some steady improvements in my form and technique ... so I'm just helping to pass it on.
CHEERS!
greydog
New member
Sounds like you're doing a good job :thumbsup:
Moved my single short rod and v-bar to the back of the riser on my tribute, it was a little difficult to tell weather or not I was shooting any better as the wind was about the worst I have ever shot in (Some ends it was difficult keeping the sight on the Target let alone the Gold), I did a Fita 70 and scraped 588 which was a lot better that I was expecting, when the wind calmed down the bow felt really nice in the hand, I will have to see what happens indoors.
