jb.68
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jb
welsh yew
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jb
stevesjem
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This is what I sent to John:
Bow Test
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jb.68
Steve, firstly yes, I have made up my mind and I believe yew to be a great bow wood that is why I have a self yew bow. I'm just not convinced that the Italian yew makes any better bows than any other yew of the same quality. There must inevitably be good and bad in all batches.
Secondly, what experience do you think I need to have of this wood? I have seen, handled and shot an Italian yew bow. One of yours I believe.
BTW. You're welcome, but I think everyone already knows.
jb
Ok John thats fair enough, but how about we put it to the test and see if I can't change your mind or at least try to convince you that the Italian wood is far more robust than American or English of the same quality.
So what I propose is:
I'm not sure if you have an English Yew bow or an American but either way you bring yours (I'm sure it is a good one) and I will bring a good quality Italian Yew bow and we need to find a third bow of whatever region yours and mine isn't. I know you shoot heavyish bows so as long as the 3 bows are of similar weight 100lb+ we should have a good match of bows.
We will then have 3 bows from different regions and of similar quality and draw weight to do the tests.
You must now be prepared to destroy your bow!
Test 1. Take the bows out and shoot them for distance and record the findings, For this we use the same arrow and the same archer.
Test 2. We put the bows on a rig and mechanically draw them to 32" and then we cut the string.
Test 3. We refrigerate the bows in a freezer for a couple of hours and then we brace them and immediately pull them to full draw and shoot them.
Now in my eyes these tests will prove without a doubt which wood type is the most robust and ultimately the best for making a bow that would have been used in warfare, you see in a war situation the bow will not have been molly coddled, it would have to be able to withstand being bashed about, it would have to withstand string breakages and freezing temperatures.
I am prepared to possibly sacrifice my bow, However I have already done test 2 so I have a bit of an advantage, but there you have it, We can also film these proceedings so everyone can join in on the fun.
What do you say John, are you up for it?
Steve
This was Johns reply:
Steve, sounds like a plan. However I will not do it with that yew bow that I have, firstly I am a bit precious of it plus it is a flatty, so it wont give us a like for like comparison. Let me see what I can sort bow wise and get back to you.
jb
So it looks like were on for some serious tests which should show which wood is the most robust and as such should show the reasons why continental High Altitude Yew was used for war bows in the middle ages.
Watch this space.
Steve
Bow Test
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jb.68
Steve, firstly yes, I have made up my mind and I believe yew to be a great bow wood that is why I have a self yew bow. I'm just not convinced that the Italian yew makes any better bows than any other yew of the same quality. There must inevitably be good and bad in all batches.
Secondly, what experience do you think I need to have of this wood? I have seen, handled and shot an Italian yew bow. One of yours I believe.
BTW. You're welcome, but I think everyone already knows.
jb
Ok John thats fair enough, but how about we put it to the test and see if I can't change your mind or at least try to convince you that the Italian wood is far more robust than American or English of the same quality.
So what I propose is:
I'm not sure if you have an English Yew bow or an American but either way you bring yours (I'm sure it is a good one) and I will bring a good quality Italian Yew bow and we need to find a third bow of whatever region yours and mine isn't. I know you shoot heavyish bows so as long as the 3 bows are of similar weight 100lb+ we should have a good match of bows.
We will then have 3 bows from different regions and of similar quality and draw weight to do the tests.
You must now be prepared to destroy your bow!
Test 1. Take the bows out and shoot them for distance and record the findings, For this we use the same arrow and the same archer.
Test 2. We put the bows on a rig and mechanically draw them to 32" and then we cut the string.
Test 3. We refrigerate the bows in a freezer for a couple of hours and then we brace them and immediately pull them to full draw and shoot them.
Now in my eyes these tests will prove without a doubt which wood type is the most robust and ultimately the best for making a bow that would have been used in warfare, you see in a war situation the bow will not have been molly coddled, it would have to be able to withstand being bashed about, it would have to withstand string breakages and freezing temperatures.
I am prepared to possibly sacrifice my bow, However I have already done test 2 so I have a bit of an advantage, but there you have it, We can also film these proceedings so everyone can join in on the fun.
What do you say John, are you up for it?
Steve
This was Johns reply:
Steve, sounds like a plan. However I will not do it with that yew bow that I have, firstly I am a bit precious of it plus it is a flatty, so it wont give us a like for like comparison. Let me see what I can sort bow wise and get back to you.
jb
So it looks like were on for some serious tests which should show which wood is the most robust and as such should show the reasons why continental High Altitude Yew was used for war bows in the middle ages.
Watch this space.
Steve
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alanesq
New member
Excellent - I always prefer an experiment to an argument 
As David Kirkaldy famously said "facts, not opinions"
Should be a really interesting event
As David Kirkaldy famously said "facts, not opinions"
Should be a really interesting event
D
Deleted member 7654
Guest
I'd think it would be a better test, and less wastefull of good bows, if you made up test samples of the woods, say 15" long 1"x1".
It would probably be easier to get more samples too.
Problem would be getting a statistically significant number of samples of each type.
to be honest a single bow of each type would prove nothing and could be a terrible waste of good Yew bows.
Overall, I too am a great believer in the empirical approach. Maths is just another tool, it's the empirical result that counts, and I'd love to see any test results you get.
Del
PS. I certainly wouldn't abuse my bow like that.
It would probably be easier to get more samples too.
Problem would be getting a statistically significant number of samples of each type.
to be honest a single bow of each type would prove nothing and could be a terrible waste of good Yew bows.
Overall, I too am a great believer in the empirical approach. Maths is just another tool, it's the empirical result that counts, and I'd love to see any test results you get.
Del
PS. I certainly wouldn't abuse my bow like that.
englishwarbow
New member
Yes but it wouldn't be as much fun Bwahahahahaha!
stevesjem
New member
I also do not make a habit of abusing bows, however it seems the only way I can show you all the benefits of High Altitude Italian Yew over other yew types and seeing how Phil raised the question by his statement earlier in this thread, I see no other way.
At least you can all see that I am totally prepared to prove the wood that I use and not just make glib statements that have no substance.
Steve
At least you can all see that I am totally prepared to prove the wood that I use and not just make glib statements that have no substance.
Steve
Yew Selfbow
Active member
Anybody got a 7 foot freezer ????
stevesjem
New member
As a matter of fact we do, I have access to a walk in deep freeze up near east mids airport
Any other questions? Or is that all you have to contribute, like I said Phil, you started this and I am prepared to take this all the way, will you supply the 3rd bow for the tests?
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fearny
New member
Whilst in a way i'd like to see this go ahead i'd hate any of the 3 bows to get damaged.
In Hugh D.H.Soar's book "Secrets of the English War Bow" Chapter 2, a test for comparitive strength was already carried out. They didn't go sticking them in a freezer though u'll give you that.
2 English Yew bows, 2 American Yew bows and 1 Italian Yew bow were compared to each other. Results showed that "weight for weight, Italian T.baccata will outshoot both".
That, seems to me to be a good enough point for it's validity in being chosen for the vast majority of War Bows, at least until supply slackened off. If it hadn't have been worth it why would they insist on importing X amounts of staves with wine?
Admittedly i speak without any experience, but i trust the judgement of those learned in such things!
In Hugh D.H.Soar's book "Secrets of the English War Bow" Chapter 2, a test for comparitive strength was already carried out. They didn't go sticking them in a freezer though u'll give you that.
2 English Yew bows, 2 American Yew bows and 1 Italian Yew bow were compared to each other. Results showed that "weight for weight, Italian T.baccata will outshoot both".
That, seems to me to be a good enough point for it's validity in being chosen for the vast majority of War Bows, at least until supply slackened off. If it hadn't have been worth it why would they insist on importing X amounts of staves with wine?
Admittedly i speak without any experience, but i trust the judgement of those learned in such things!
stevesjem
New member
Hi fearny
The tests you mention were done by Mark Stretton, Joe Gibbs and myself.
The American yew bow was Marks bow, The English were Joe's bows and the Italian bow was and still is mine, those tests in Hugh's book were done nearly 5 years ago now and this is the same bow I intend using for the tests I have outlined.
Like I said I also do not want to damage any good bows, but unless your prepared to break stuff, you can never really get to the bottom of why this wood was so sought after.
I am not in the least bit concerned about my bow as test 1 has already been done and Hughs book showed the results, Test 2, I have also done on the same bow and it still shoots as well now as ever did, test 3 "The Freezer" test, well High Altitude Italian yew grows in these harsh conditions, e.g Winter Temperatures below Zero at night.
So yes I am very confident of my wood.
There will always be people who due to various reasons want to discredit this wood and internet forums are a very easy and annonymous way of doing just that, however it will be interesting to see if these same people are prepared to take up this test. I could do all the tests myself with bows that I have, but that would just leave me open to critisisms about the quality of each bow I used, this is why it is imperative that the American and the English Yew bows come from other people.
Steve
The tests you mention were done by Mark Stretton, Joe Gibbs and myself.
The American yew bow was Marks bow, The English were Joe's bows and the Italian bow was and still is mine, those tests in Hugh's book were done nearly 5 years ago now and this is the same bow I intend using for the tests I have outlined.
Like I said I also do not want to damage any good bows, but unless your prepared to break stuff, you can never really get to the bottom of why this wood was so sought after.
I am not in the least bit concerned about my bow as test 1 has already been done and Hughs book showed the results, Test 2, I have also done on the same bow and it still shoots as well now as ever did, test 3 "The Freezer" test, well High Altitude Italian yew grows in these harsh conditions, e.g Winter Temperatures below Zero at night.
So yes I am very confident of my wood.
There will always be people who due to various reasons want to discredit this wood and internet forums are a very easy and annonymous way of doing just that, however it will be interesting to see if these same people are prepared to take up this test. I could do all the tests myself with bows that I have, but that would just leave me open to critisisms about the quality of each bow I used, this is why it is imperative that the American and the English Yew bows come from other people.
Steve
fearny
New member
I fully understand where you are coming from, the internet "hardman" is abound, forums are great for making things up.
Nice one on those tests though Steve, i was impressed, i thought Mark had something to do with them being as he wrote a few chapters but i didn't know you did too, kudos to you!
On a side note, if the offers still open, Wednesday i will pop over, i'm signed off work on halfdays for 2 weeks from today so can pop up one afternoon.
jb.68
Member
OK Steve, update time, I have spoken to two bowyers who would be prepared to make me a bow for this purpose. However, the cost to me is prohibitive. Now, I could buy the stave and make the bow myself, but before we go any further, let?s look at what we are trying to achieve here.
The original claim was not of what English Yew is capable of, but what Italian Yew is capable of.
The original claim as I remember it, was.
Now If you still want to show how robust Italian Yew is, then that is fine and I am still prepared to go for test 1, but how about we make it more interesting? You must have sold a fair few of these bows now I guess. So you should be able to rustle up a few people to come shoot. I know a few people with English and Pacific Yew bows that maybe interested. How about we have a Yew shoot off? Then after, we can all come watch you cut the string on the Italian bow.
Let me know.
The original claim was not of what English Yew is capable of, but what Italian Yew is capable of.
The original claim as I remember it, was.
So to be honest, I am not prepared to blow up a bow to demonstrate something that I already accept may happen. Unless of course you want to chuck 600 notes my way to pay for the bow.
Alternatively maybe the English Warbow Society would like to sponsor the test. Fun costs.
Now If you still want to show how robust Italian Yew is, then that is fine and I am still prepared to go for test 1, but how about we make it more interesting? You must have sold a fair few of these bows now I guess. So you should be able to rustle up a few people to come shoot. I know a few people with English and Pacific Yew bows that maybe interested. How about we have a Yew shoot off? Then after, we can all come watch you cut the string on the Italian bow.
This is starting to sound like a personal dig, I am not anonymous, lets keep it civil eh. I have nothing to prove at the end of the day mate.
Let me know.
stevesjem
New member
Hi John
This started with a post your mate Phil made, please see below.
Interesting point of view Steve, but unless you have any evidence to back up that claim, then that is all it is mate.
I don?t blame you, after all it is the patter of a salesman with a product to sell.
Btw
Pacific Yew - Taxus brevifola
English- Taxus Baccata
Hope that helps.
jb
Hi John
Well it seems from your latest post that you are not prepared to put it to the test, A performance test only will not prove the strength and resiliancy of each type of wood will it, so even though it is necessary to look at performance, I'm afraid it is not enough.
A Yew shoot off is a nice idea, however you know that can never happen as personality clashes would make it end up as a very unpleasant day and nothing would get proved.
My post you quoted at the end was not a personal attack on you unless you are guilty of what I said, I am trying to keep this civil.
I'll tell you what I will do, I will run these tests and film the whole thing and post the footage on Youtube, I will invite you to witness the tests and no matter what happens I would ask you to post the findings, good or bad, would that prove to you how robust this wood is, also if I do this would you do the same?
Steve
Steve
This started with a post your mate Phil made, please see below.
You then came back with.
Interesting point of view Steve, but unless you have any evidence to back up that claim, then that is all it is mate.
I don?t blame you, after all it is the patter of a salesman with a product to sell.
Btw
Pacific Yew - Taxus brevifola
English- Taxus Baccata
Hope that helps.
jb
Hi John
Well it seems from your latest post that you are not prepared to put it to the test, A performance test only will not prove the strength and resiliancy of each type of wood will it, so even though it is necessary to look at performance, I'm afraid it is not enough.
A Yew shoot off is a nice idea, however you know that can never happen as personality clashes would make it end up as a very unpleasant day and nothing would get proved.
My post you quoted at the end was not a personal attack on you unless you are guilty of what I said, I am trying to keep this civil.
I'll tell you what I will do, I will run these tests and film the whole thing and post the footage on Youtube, I will invite you to witness the tests and no matter what happens I would ask you to post the findings, good or bad, would that prove to you how robust this wood is, also if I do this would you do the same?
Steve
Steve
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jb.68
Member
Why do you consider that I am trying to discredit the Italian Yew? I really couldn?t give a rats if it is better than any other. If it is, great. The bottom line is there are claims made for the quality of Italian Yew over all others. All I say is show us.
Btw, when you say that it should be worth the cost to me of discrediting you, I think that you are taking this too personally. Remember, I haven?t made any claims for English Yew.
Anyway, the offer is there, I will either have a bow made or make one myself that I will put against yours to shoot, but I don?t need to put a gun to my head to know what happens when you pull the trigger. However, if you do want me to destroy it, then you can pay. After all, if you?re that confident of your product, then this is a great advert for it isn?t it? Just sit back and watch the sales roll in.
Btw, I?m interested as to who you would choose as an independent archer to shoot the bows, as I guess that could be the next stumbling block.
Actually, your post has changed a lot now so some of my reply doesn't look relevant.
Btw, when you say that it should be worth the cost to me of discrediting you, I think that you are taking this too personally. Remember, I haven?t made any claims for English Yew.
Anyway, the offer is there, I will either have a bow made or make one myself that I will put against yours to shoot, but I don?t need to put a gun to my head to know what happens when you pull the trigger. However, if you do want me to destroy it, then you can pay. After all, if you?re that confident of your product, then this is a great advert for it isn?t it? Just sit back and watch the sales roll in.
Btw, I?m interested as to who you would choose as an independent archer to shoot the bows, as I guess that could be the next stumbling block.
Actually, your post has changed a lot now so some of my reply doesn't look relevant.
stevesjem
New member
Yes my post had changed, i felt that my previous post was a little to personal and as such removed it, I want this to stay as civil as possible as it seems do you as your original post has changed somewhat aswell.
Lets keep this at at least an adult level.
I will reiterate my offer.
I'll tell you what I will do, I will run these tests and film the whole thing and post the footage on Youtube, I will invite you to witness the tests and no matter what happens I would ask you to post the findings, good or bad, would that prove to you how robust this wood is, also if I do this would you do the same?
What do you say?
Steve
Lets keep this at at least an adult level.
I will reiterate my offer.
I'll tell you what I will do, I will run these tests and film the whole thing and post the footage on Youtube, I will invite you to witness the tests and no matter what happens I would ask you to post the findings, good or bad, would that prove to you how robust this wood is, also if I do this would you do the same?
What do you say?
Steve
ChakaZulu
New member
One thing is occurring to me, and I think Del mentioned it earlier. The obvious problem with testing bow against bow is that not all bows are equal. You can make two bows from the same piece of wood and they may not be the same. Design and crafting will be important, I would have thought? Could the test not be performed using simply some pieces of wood? Otherwise we could simply be proving Steve's superiority as a bowyer rather than his wood's quality.
Likewise I have some doubts about the testing of just one or two bows. I know it's prohibitively expensive to break lots, but ultimately what you're going to show is that this piece of Italian is better than that piece of English/Pacific etc. By all means do the test, but I don't think you're going to be able to claim scientific proof.
Oh, and before I get any abuse, I am not making any claims one way or the other about which wood is better. I'm just making claims about good science and the meaning of proof.
Likewise I have some doubts about the testing of just one or two bows. I know it's prohibitively expensive to break lots, but ultimately what you're going to show is that this piece of Italian is better than that piece of English/Pacific etc. By all means do the test, but I don't think you're going to be able to claim scientific proof.
Oh, and before I get any abuse, I am not making any claims one way or the other about which wood is better. I'm just making claims about good science and the meaning of proof.
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