welsh yew

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ChakaZulu

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Whilst we're on the topic, far more interesting than whether Italian yew is better is why Italian yew is better. Is there some special characteristc? Denser? Thinner/thicker growth rings? Quicker/slower growing? Tougher fibres?

If it really does have better cast and better resistance to string breakage and survives better in the cold, there is presumably something other than simply where it grew. What effect did the location have on the structure of the wood?
 

stevesjem

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Whilst we're on the topic, far more interesting than whether Italian yew is better is why Italian yew is better. Is there some special characteristc? Denser? Thinner/thicker growth rings? Quicker/slower growing? Tougher fibres?

If it really does have better cast and better resistance to string breakage and survives better in the cold, there is presumably something other than simply where it grew. What effect did the location have on the structure of the wood?
Hi Chakazulu, well you have hit the nail on the head, it is all to do with the conditions it grows in.

The Italian Yew I use grows at very high Altitudes, in the Dolomites and Alps, it usually grows in cracks in the mountain on very steep gradients, and in extreme temperatures with very poor soil quality.

Looking at the areas these trees grow, they have a lot to deal with.

The areas these trees grow are not totally in the sun light, 1 side will always be in darkness due to the proximity of other trees around it and the fact that it is in a crack in the mountain or where 2 mountains meet.

The very steep Gradients mean that any water passing by will do just that, Pass it by on its way down the mountain.

The soil quality is terrible, there may be if your lucky a couple of inches of poor quality soil with an Alp or Dolomite underneath it. Any nutrients in the soil are washed away by any rain fall.

The Temperatures it endures can range from 30deg in the summer daytime to -20 in the winter night time, being that high up the temperatures are all exagerated.

In effect what you end up with a tree that has had to fight to survive and this makes the wood incredibly hard and dense.
eg. a 200 year old tree grown in England in perfect growing conditions for trees may be up to 3 feet in diameter, whereas in the conditions the high altitude Italian trees grow the tree maybe 6" in diameter, so you get incredibly tight growth rings, so tight that when you take the back to a single growth ring you would struggle to achieve this with tools normally used, eg. Draw knife and scraper, instead you need to use sand paper to do this job as one scrape with a scraper could result in going through 3 o 4 growth rings instead of 1/2 a ring on less dense wood.

This is why this wood was so highly prized in the medieval period and why so much of it was imported to England.

There has been much talk of seeing bows from High Altitude yew that come from bigger trees, however the fact of the matter is they don't come much bigger, the largest diameter tree I have seen was about 9" in diameter and this tree was approx 400 years old, it was also quite low down on the mountain, approx 800mtrs, see picture

You can see also in this picture the size of the other trees cut and how much smaller they are. These are not boughs(Branches), these are all the Boles (Trunks).

All these will be ready for making bows from in another 3 years, they were cut 2 years ago.

I hope this helps with your questions.

Steve
 

ChakaZulu

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Thanks Steve, that's what I thought.

Without meaning to disagree, therefore, I'll point out that when you say Italian yew is better than English, we need to bear in mind that an Italian yew grown in fertile low-lying Italy would be no better than English, and worse than English grown in poor English soil. I appreciate that yours is a pretty good shorthand!

One final note is that in TBB4 Tim Baker makes the same kind of points you do, saying that the best yew suffered during its lifetime and has 50-100 rings per inch. He also says, however, that the best yew he's seen was taken from an English chalk cliff by Roy King. To be fair, he doesn't say whether he's ever see Italian yew...

Out of interest, what specific gravity do you get in your yew?
 

stevesjem

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Thanks Steve, that's what I thought.

Without meaning to disagree, therefore, I'll point out that when you say Italian yew is better than English, we need to bear in mind that an Italian yew grown in fertile low-lying Italy would be no better than English, and worse than English grown in poor English soil. I appreciate that yours is a pretty good shorthand!

One final note is that in TBB4 Tim Baker makes the same kind of points you do, saying that the best yew suffered during its lifetime and has 50-100 rings per inch. He also says, however, that the best yew he's seen was taken from an English chalk cliff by Roy King. To be fair, he doesn't say whether he's ever see Italian yew...

Out of interest, what specific gravity do you get in your yew?
Yes of course ChakaZulu, I would agree that low altitude Italian Yew would probably not be as good as harsh grown English yew, However I am talking about High Altitude, grown over 800mtrs. I have seen some excellent quality English yew which is also very dense, however I have yet to find anything with the hardness of this High Altitude Italian.
To be totally honest with you I have no idea of the SG, I did recently send a sample to Dr Mark Jones at the Mary Rose trust as he was trying to find out where the wood for the MR bows was from by testing the DNA of the wood, I will call him and I'm sure he will have tested the SG of the wood, I will let you know.

Cheers

Steve
 
D

Deleted member 7654

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Bravo... ChakaZulu
Some science would be much better than a who can pi$$ the highest contest.
Del
 
D

Deleted member 7654

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Blimey that's an impressive stash of logs, do you season 'em in the round or split 'em.
More imortant do you sell 'em? (or quarters thereof) I wouldn't mind trying some, having used English Yew.
Del
 

stevesjem

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Blimey that's an impressive stash of logs, do you season 'em in the round or split 'em.
More imortant do you sell 'em? (or quarters thereof) I wouldn't mind trying some, having used English Yew.
Del
They are seasoned in the log for the 1st year, then they are halved and left a further 4 years.
I'm afraid the staves are not for sale, only made into bows I'm afraid.

Sorry

Steve
 
D

Deleted member 7654

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They are seasoned in the log for the 1st year, then they are halved and left a further 4 years.
I'm afraid the staves are not for sale, only made into bows I'm afraid.

Sorry

Steve
:( Hmmm, that makes the whole argument pretty irrelevant then doesn't it?
I'll continue to tease bows out of scant supplies of wood which may not be ideal, but is full of character.
Out of interest comparing the curvature of the bows in our respective avatars shows no lack of flexibility in my English Yew (Ok, I kow it's not at the same draw weight...90lb as shown in the pic.)
Del
 

ChakaZulu

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And now for some shameless plugging...

New DIY board is up (in The Pavilion), with space for endless discussion of wood!
 

stevesjem

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:( Hmmm, that makes the whole argument pretty irrelevant then doesn't it?
I'll continue to tease bows out of scant supplies of wood which may not be ideal, but is full of character.
Out of interest comparing the curvature of the bows in our respective avatars shows no lack of flexibility in my English Yew (Ok, I kow it's not at the same draw weight...90lb as shown in the pic.)
Del
Just because this wood is not for sale to the general public, That makes the argument irrelevant, What a rediculous statement to make, I have spent over 5 years securing this wood and making bows made from it available to the general public, what you need to understand is that there is not an endless supply of this wood and although you may be able to make a good bow, not everyone will and in effect this could waste a good piece of wood, or should I say Tree, because that is what it is, most of the time you can only get 1 bow out of the whole tree, so should I then get a 200 year old tree cut, season it for 5 years and then sell it to someone who may just make firewood out of it.....I THINK NOT! I would rather be happy that the tree has been cut and made into a good warbow.


The curvature in the bows in our avatars just shows the skill of the bowyer not the resilience of the wood.

Steve
 

ChakaZulu

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Just because this wood is not for sale to the general public, That makes the argument irrelevant, What a rediculous statement to make,
It might make it irrelevant to Del, although I agree not irrelevant in itself.


The curvature in the bows in our avatars just shows the skill of the bowyer not the resilience of the wood.
Now here I'm not sure. I would have thought it shows the length of the bow, the drawlength and the design (i.e. whether it bends throughout or stays stiff in the middle and/or tips. I'm not convinced you can necessarily say that the one is necessarily made by a more talented bowyer (that said, I prefer your stiffer tips to Del's whippier-looking bow, but I think you're getting a little close to the p***ing contest again...)
 
D

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I never mentioned price.
To make a blanket statement that "it's not for sale" seemed rather selfish, as it implies you won't even sell a stave for the price of a finished bow.
I appreciate the time and effort involved in sourcing the timber, and commend your effort.
Del
BTW I'm unsubscribing from this thread as it's getting silly.
If anyone really wants to communicate with me they can Private Message me. :(
 

alanesq

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I happen to know that Steve has refused to even sell a finished bow to at least one person because he didn't want it to be just used as an ornament
 

fearny

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I happen to know that Steve has refused to even sell a finished bow to at least one person because he didn't want it to be just used as an ornament
To me this makes perfect sense. In my opinion, as this wood isn't an endless source, to sell it to someone who wants just an ornament seems wrong. If it's just an ornament then who cares what it's made from. Maybe not brilliant business sense but some to people, me being one of them, and maybe Steve too, money isn't everything.

If that's true i commend him.

I'm only 26, 27 in 2weeks, but i've had too much happen in my life to care about money, people matter more. If someone, anyone, me for instance, could spend a few months scraping up enough money (I have no idea of cost here) to buy an Italian Yew War Bow and used it, surely that is better than it being bought by someone just to mount?

Of course, Steve could have very different reasons!:rotfl:
 

alanesq

New member
I fully agree (I wasn't implying its a bad thing)
I admire him for doing this - all most people seem to think of these days is money :-(

Although having said that I realise the irony as I am sat below my Italian yew bow which has so far just hung on the wall :-(
I have been waiting to get strong enough but I think its time to give in and have it reduced in weight and get using it !

 
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