Hickory Longbow question

[Tony Colton]

Hi all,

I'm hoping someone can help.
I've gone and bought a hickory selfbow thats currently to heavy for me to pull beyond 25".
You've guessed it next question is how do i reduce the weight of said bow?
Would a 1" longer string help? or does it need reworking to a more suitable weight?
I spent all day yesterday looking at this issue and from what i gathered trapping may be my only real option. Its not the best finished bow ever so this may be the perfect opportunity to for me to learn about bow making somewhat at the same time.

The 25" draw best i can manage with the medievil technique for pulling warbows, not a hope of me getting close to that with the Victorian style of drawing the bow.

Yes i know i should have tested weight properly before but was working on the draw of what my old victorian flatbow which was ment to be 50lb draw before shattering in my hand

Can provide pics of new bow if that would be of help to advise best course of action.

Really hoping someone can help here, I'm not afraid of learning or hard work to get this right (plus it'll be fun).

 

[ghound]

Hi Tony, you will get some good info on this from the likes of Del and Wills who's into his warbow's, so welcome to the forum!

 

[Tony Colton]

Thanks GHound, I most certainly need all the help i can get here.

Hopefully one day i'll be able to help others in return.

 

[Egstonvonbrick]

What weight is the bow?

If a mighty warbow - would be sad to emasculate it!

If around 50# then i'd suggest just practice and you'll soon get used to it!

Also... if a trad longbow check your brace height and if around a fist-mellee then carry on, if wildly less than this then get this sorted first as may help.

If you really want to reduce weight then you'll need a tiller and a method of measuring the weight and then... depending on the reduction required... either scrape away at the belly evenly (supposedly) but keeping a good eye on where you are (photos/etc.)... as it will soon slip away from you!

if a large redcution in weight required then you may have to remove from the width and this is where i'd suggest leaving the poor fella alone and perhaps going for an intermediate weight bow to get you where you need!

A good excuse to buy an Ash plank and practice making one to the weight(s) required - won't matter too much about their efficiency as you can use as a 'training' bow.

Good luck and let us have more info... length width/depth at handle and nocks to start with... pictures as well!

Cheers
Ev
p.s. Apologies if i misconstrued the question, but after a grotty day have hit the booze!

 

[Egstonvonbrick]

If you are tempted to have go yourself - highly recommended - then please have a shufty at...

This great free guide:
http://www.alanesq.com/longbow/bsb/The-Back-Street-Bowyer-b2.pdf

Or... a morons attempt - covered on this fair site...
http://www.archeryinterchange.com/f137/my-second-attempt-making-ash-bow-failure-49765/index3.html

Pick up a copy of the 'Bowyers Bible' - reasonable price on that large web based retailer!

Or look at the 'Cats work' and and Google 'Dels Bows'... some (well mostly) marvellous stuff to look at and learn.

Cheers
Ev

 

[Tony Colton]

The bow is 50lb @28" draw and 68" in length.

I hope these pics give you what you need (really quite difficult to photo a bow).

No warbow pulling technique is the only way i can pull it (ie point to the ground pull and bring up in an arc). I don't think id even manage to bend the string on a warbow let alone pull one.

dimensions of this bow are 68" long around 1" wide on the handle by 1 1/4" thick, the limbs at their widest point are 1 1/4" by 4/8ths, nock ends are 3/4" by 1/8th of an inch.

I'm not sure ill ever be able to pull this bow, holding it at even 25" draw is near impossible for me (tall and lanky with office job).

As for the ash idea, i have a whole tree (around 150 year old ash) that fell during the last storm in the drive currently cut into 8ft logs waiting for me to turn into staves. But thats a whole new discussion.

 

[Egstonvonbrick]

If you are a 'normal' human male... then i'd be tempted to leave well alone and just practice...

I remember when a 35# bow felt horrendous... but am now just a 'weekly shooter' and owt up to 60# is ok for round of field shooting!
More is doable - but tiring!

Are you in a club?

If so then practice with one of their 35# recurve-jobbies to see you through to this bow...
Most should be technique and using your shoulders...

As previously mentioned first check that at brace you have around six* inches between string and back of the bow... stringing can feel horrible when not used to it - i 'push and pull' but if you are uncomfy practice with a stringer.
(higher brace will reduce weight)

* Or what the bowyer has written on the bow - if any.

Suggest you then plink away... go for a shorter under chin anchor to get a feel for for it, relax and enjoy!

If you do intend to re-tiller then you will need a 'tiller-tree' to rest you bow on, exercise the limbs, a selection of tools and then gradually scrape away evenly at the belly and constantly re-check your work and check that all the limb is working - will also need some scales to see were 'you is at'!

I take pictures - put them on the pooter - draw circles, flip the image etc... i also squint at dinner plates to check the curve and place a selection different length steel rules on the belly and whiz these up and down, your finger gives an amazing feel of how much it is deflecting and then you scribble on the bow where to remove and leave well alone!

If you see a hinge appear then do not remove any more and hope you have enough to remove from the rest of the limb and curse yourself for not stopping for a cup of tea and one more 'measure' before wading in with the #######-file!

Some people draw grid on their wall - but my wife was against this!

Again go slow as i'm sure you know... its quite hard to put it back on again!

But before wading in to a bow - get a plank - if you can find some Hazel it dries quick is great to work with and will learn you well!

Apologies i'm rambling!

Cheers
Ev

 

[Egstonvonbrick]

>>#######

My what a prudish forum-hamster we have! In future i shall call it my illegitimate-file!

>>tall and lanky
You've got bigger levers!

Oh, what is your preferred drawlength?

Being tall and lanky you may (but not necessarily) have a natural draw beyond 28"... i think i may have some Orangutan DNA as my preferred side of face arrow length is 29.5"... although am shooting less for my shorter Molly type bows... but am making shorter arrows and modifying my draw to ensure the bows stay one piece...

You may want to build yourself a seven foot self longbow at 30# and gradually pike as you get used to the weight!
Maybe not a pretty or efficient bow but that wouldn't be the point and would 'learn you a lot' at little cost.

Cheers
Ev

 

[Tony Colton]

You may well be right regarding this bow and leaving well alone. Build some arrows and enjoy as best as possible.

I can manage a 28" draw bow well enough its what my first bow is, but to be really comfortable i need a 31" draw, found its just a matter of shifting the body parts around a bit more.

Would a normal plank from a bulders merchants be ok you think or would i need something a little more suitable?

Not part of any club yet, the one in Lowestoft wanted a stupid amount of money a year but with help from the guy i bought the bow off im currently looking at 2 archery clubs that are within a 40 mile radius of me.

Would it be worth looking at getting my flatbow repaired? It snapped right in the centre of the handle? I think its repairable but way beyond my abilites or knowledge

 

[bearded bowyer]

Hi Tony
I agree with Egstonvonbrick
If you spend 5 minutes every other day, drawing the bow as far as you can, you will get it up to 28" in no time. Expect the delayed onset muscle soreness (DOM) for a while as your body adjusts to it. If after 2-4 weeks you find you still cant manage, then think about reducing limb weight.
I've just had to drop a bow from 52lbs to 40lbs @28" for a chap because it was beyond him. It took about an hour using a scraper and sand paper. BUT you must have a tillering jig, and check it continually to make sure the limbs are bending proportionately and smoothly. ( yes...I know its the same thing....)
Best not to experiment on it unless you are prepared for it to be a right-off and loose the money you spent on it.

Your ash sounds interesting. what have you got lined up for it?

Matt

 

[Tony Colton]

Well by the sounds of things i have alot of working out to do with this bow.

To be honest im not overly sure with the ash yet. Only cut it up during the end of last week and not really had much time to look at it since but theirs alot of wood here.

First thing i need to do is find out exactly which bits i need and the best way to cut them to get good staves from them, how long will i leave them etc.

So far i have bits ranging from 6" wide to almost 18" wide and almost all are near straight with no offshoots so it has alot of potential.

Im going to need alot of advice on this before i get the chainsaw back out to cut this down to size, anything left over is going to be made into arrows and firewood.

Its not very often you get almost 8 tonnes of ash to play with so want to be sure i get the most out of it, whether it be bows etc or furniture for the home.

 

[bearded bowyer]

31 inch draw!!! wow I thought I had a long draw at 29.5"
Best bet is to experiment. do you have any bow building experience at all?
As to the repair, it depends on how the handle broke. if it is a low weight bow you could just clamp and glue it, put some thin metal sheet to brace it and then bind it. Ive done this, it works a treat, but only with lighter bows.

 

[Egstonvonbrick]

>> i need a 31"

Shorter primitive bows may be an issue for you then!

Sounds like unless you like paying for 'out of the ordinary' draw lengths (most bowyers will charge more - and more - for owt over 28") that building your own is the way to go!

Or shoot from under your chin - and don't tell me the 31" is from under your chin!

>>Plank
Please take a shufty at the fantastic guide previously posted:
http://www.alanesq.com/longbow/bsb/T...-Bowyer-b2.pdf
This is a superb PDF guide about how anyone can make a bow... its how i started and is refreshingly free of BS and old wife JuJu that seems to surround the subject of - bending a stick!

Honestly - well worth a look.

>>Snapped bow
These can be spliced - will shorten - and may be worth a punt as a project... but if it blew cos you were overdrawing it then making it shorter ain't gonna help - but good for another project.

I'd look at the guide above - cut some of that ash you have into bow sized billets - daub the ends with PVA/paint and get curing - if you can't wait then try hazel or some kiln dried Ash from a builders yard - but from experience you'll struggle to find owt decent.

Start overly long with a low weight 35# as this should be safe and smooth - you may well need to start at eight foot tho to get to a 31" draw bow!

Good luck!

Cheers
Ev
p.s. And definitely join a club - i'm not one for clubs (or people in general to be honest having a fair dose of misanthropy in my DNA) but they are useful and hopefully have like minded people who can help - if not then join another!
I'm NFAS as couldn't cope with the tedium of GNAS and target archery - but am still looking for a decent 'long range' club.
If you can face shooting indoor at 10m - should at least get you practising and more options to find a place - although i can't cope with this!

 

[bearded bowyer]

URGENT!
You may have already don't this but if you haven't you MUST seal the ends of the ash. PVA, paint, lacquer. just make sure the ends are sealed so it dries from the core so it doesn't split. otherwise most of it will be useless!
And split it lengthways. Lots on utube to show how.

 

[Tony Colton]

Bow building experiance = 0 for me except alot of reading up on how to do so. I figure if im going to shoot a bow the best way to learn how a bow works is by making them, Learn far more about how the woods etc than anyone could ever explain to me.

One of the clubs im looking at is a NFAS club the other is just a small club in Framlingham. But yet to look at both properly. Ive always just gone into the local woods and shot at a single tree, moving an extra meter or so out every time to improve aim. Worked for me so far.

Think i'll try bearded bowyers idea on fixing that bow, i've already reglued it with the intention of hanging on the wall, but putting a band of steel around it will take 5 minuets. So really be nothing lost, except an expensive ornament. It say its a 50lb draw but as i can draw that easily and the new bow which is a 50lb draw i cant get close i would guess around the 30-35lb mark at the very top.

Thanks for the link EV your the second person to give me that link tonight, the guy who i bought the new bow off gave me the same thing.

 

[WillS]

It's pretty much all been covered - you've been given some great advice so all I'll say regarding the hickory bow is good luck, have some fun learning about tillering if you do take that route (although I'd suggest working up to it - most guys can get comfortable with 50lbs fairly quickly with practice.

As for the two apparent 50lb bows feeling like 50 and 35 - it's always worth noting that depending how the bow has been made and how good the bowyer is the weight can come on in different places. I recently had the pleasure of shooting a 123lb bow made by the incredible Celestino Poletti from high altitude Italian yew and compared to other bows of that weight it felt like I was drawing 150lbs. The weight came on very early on the drawing arm and shoulder making it very hard to get up to full 32" draw but when it let go it was like a rocket launcher!! Other 100lb+ bows I've shot have the weight come on much later, meaning you can pull the first 20inches easily but the last part is like pulling a house and rolling into it is vital.

You might be surprised if you put both bows on a scale - there's no telling of course but they might well be both 50lbs and your draw style could be giving you a different experience with each.

Bowmaking is a very weird thing. You'll encounter situations that just do not make sense at all. It's good fun, addictive and frustrating! It's rare to be able to fiddle with a bow tiller when it's already made - much easier to learn about the process than having to get through the first stages first! If you feel brave enough to muck about with a bow you've paid money for, go for it ;-)

Worst case - you ruin it and learn something you can use next time!

 

[Tony Colton]

Morning all,

Just a quick update on how this is going and also a little advice is required for finishing this bow off.

After pulling almost every muscle possible with this bow and almost doing some fairly serious damage I gave in.

Built a tillering stick and decided to see what the draw actually was. Almost 67lb @28" instead of 50lb. No wonder I couldn't pull it very well.

Started work on it about a week ago and now at 45lb @ 28" and 50lb @ 30" which I can hold comfortably for around a minuet, with final sanding etc i expect i'll lose another lb yet.

It now looks to be about as good as im going to get my first try, but will add pics later on for the more experianced to have a look.

I'm also starting to think about ordering some nice nocks on the bow to help finish it off. Would like horn but being a flatbow not sure how i would even go about this.

Any suggestions? If not horn anything else that works well and will finish it off nicely?

 

[Deleted member 7654]

Re-working the bow all depends on how good you are with hand tools, how much patience you have and if you are willing to take the risk.
If you get a good quality cabinet rasp (Bahco from Screwifx) and take about 3 even strokes along the belly of both limbs you can easilly shed a few pounds.
Taking an even amount along the whole belly is taking proportionately more from the tips that the mid or centre of the limb.
E.G Taking 2mm off a 20mm thickness is a smaller percentage change than taking 2mm off a 12 mm thickness.
However this shouldn't be too much of a problem as long as you don't take off too much, it will also tend towards a slightly whip tillered bow, which is not necessarilly a bad thing.
If you are taking off more you will really need to see how it is bending on the tiller, or by drawing it up in front of a mirror or patio door etc and observing the reflection.
The fine side of the Bahco rasp will remove the rasp marks once you have got the weight down.
You will also need to round off any sharp edges you have created.
The BIG problem is you take some off, string it, try it... think 'nothing is happening' and then go mad and take off too much.
The task should bore you rigid with repeated trial and error... when in doubt stop and have a cuppa.
Bow making is actually relatively simple, the hard bit is having the patience and knowing when to stop.
BTW. If the bow is tillered to 28" and you are thinking of pulling it beyond that, you will need to take much more care and ensure the whole limb is bending to share the load and take it past 28" an inch at a time watching the curve of the limbs. Dont hold it at full draw for more that a count of "one and two and".
If you are not willing to break it, leave it alone... or ask the bowyer if they are willing to re-work it for you.
Knowing how much to take off is all down to experience. For someone who knows what they are doing it's a 30 minute job... anyone else should be willing to spend a day on it!
The principal is one of successive approximation!
Del

 

[Deleted member 7654]

Morning all,

Just a quick update on how this is going and also a little advice is required for finishing this bow off.

After pulling almost every muscle possible with this bow and almost doing some fairly serious damage I gave in.

Built a tillering stick and decided to see what the draw actually was. Almost 67lb @28" instead of 50lb. No wonder I couldn't pull it very well.

Started work on it about a week ago and now at 45lb @ 28" and 50lb @ 30" which I can hold comfortably for around a minuet, with final sanding etc i expect i'll lose another lb yet.

It now looks to be about as good as im going to get my first try, but will add pics later on for the more experianced to have a look.

I'm also starting to think about ordering some nice nocks on the bow to help finish it off. Would like horn but being a flatbow not sure how i would even go about this.

Any suggestions? If not horn anything else that works well and will finish it off nicely?

Oh, I missed your update.
Good for you!
Great to have more people having a go.
Tip overlays of Waterbuffalo horn are the way to go. if you don't have any PM me and I'll pop a few bits in the post.
This blog entry shows me doing tip overlays.
Bowyer's Diary: Antler Nocks + Update
Some pics of Waterbuffao overlays here.
Bowyer's Diary: Hickory Challenge Result!
Del
(BTW. One of the guys at our club had the same problem, a bow that was way over the stated draw weight. I ended up taking 10# off it... twice!)

 

[Tony Colton]

Thanks Del will message you shortly.



Ok so here is where I've got so far but something isn't looking right to me seems the left side is still a bit stiffer than the right.

This really is quite addictive, almost can't wait to start with a blank stave now.