String alignment on a compound bow

[Thorvald]

I don't agree that laser tools is not the easiest and best way to do the alignments. Of course it might depend on the quality etc. of the tool - but I believe that the one I used last week, is such a quality tool. (OMP laser tool til opsætning af compoundbuer) - see also video here:

By the way - I think you mean that slightly more than 90 degrees (arrow to string) angle is ok, but not less. At least if measure above the arrow.
A few pictures from my adjusting the arrow rest last week:

 

[Howi]

The reason laser alignment tools are hit and miss is because where the laser tool is mounted, the surface has to be in alignment with the cams and on most bows you cannot assume that is correct. Ideally it would need to be mounted on the face of the cam then you have alignment of the laser with the plane of the cam.
With regard to vertical alignment of arrow, perhaps I did not make myself clear. Looking at the arrow on its rest, from the side, the arrow should not be above the horizontal, it can be slightly below the horizontal which may make the arrow more forgiving. I.e slightly high nock point, personally I have mine as close to 90 degrees to the string.
I have tried every arrow alignment method going and the above is my personal opinion, I am only a club level archer and have been for the past 25 years.
I am never going to set the world on fire as I am far too old, I started archery when I was 50 so work it out for yourselves. This week I shot a 252 round score of 288 ( in our club you need to score 284 or above) another positive score and I will move onto 100yds (I already have my 252 badge at 80 yds ( shot before Covid).
For all of you going through the process of center shot, use whatever method you think appropriate, I use the one that works for me and I do not have to change windage between 20 yds and 100 yds.( Unless it is windy of course )

 

[Thorvald]

Yes of course, each can use the method one feels is good for her or him. That's what's nice with archery - it's very independent from archer to archer - both when it comes to prefered equipment and tools, but also at least to some extend when it comes to methods. I have been into archery for appr. 35 years now and I have not usually fine tuned my bows and arrows a lot. Only after I started to shoot compound bow appr. 12 years ago, I started a little with that - and lately - maybe because I feel I shoot better than ever - I become more and more interested in that.

However think you are wrong about laser tools. The point is not (so much) that it should align with the cams. You mount it on the bow, where the sight sits. Then you move the laser tool sideways until it perfectly hits the string, up and down on the string. Then with an arrow on, you can adjust the sideways position of the arrow rest, until the laser hits the center of the arrow shaft from nock and to the center of the arrow point. Then you are centershot sideways. And with the tool I link to, before you do all that, you can even make sure that the bow is standing perfectly horizontally and vertically, so that you are sure that these factors will not affect the adjustments of the arrow rest.

And then you can also use the same tool, to make sure the arrow sits at a 90 degrees angle on the string - and at the same time it should be in the right height, centered with the berger hole.

And then you can also use the same tool, to check cam lean probably both at full draw as well as at not drawn position. I have never done that (worked with cam lean or cam position), but that can be my next level step up, maybe during the indoor season, as well as fine adjust the draw length, paper tune and such.

By the way, after I made the adjustments, because the laser tool cannot be used to adjust the sight's sideways position, I just sat down behind the bow, looked through the peep, down through the scope and adjusted the windage of the sight until the dot in the scope was at the center of the arrow shaft.

That seemed to be a very good work - but I am not completely finished to adjust sight etc. at the different distances. I was shooting at 90 m yesterday and found that I shot left of center, but at least sometimes nice groups (it was a bit windy from the right). So I have not yet fine adjusted windage, because I need to shoot more at 50 - 90 m, to be sure I consequently shoots to the left and not (only) because of the wind. Because it could also possibly be because I cant the bow a little. But at least: Before I adjusted the arrow rest with this tool I shot to the right of center at 90 m and the tool also showed me that I needed to move the arrow rest to the left.

 

[Howi]

Only one problem, Yes the laser beam will follow from the string to the arrow point, but is that path in the same plane as the cam? How do you know? how can you tell?

You say "The point is not (so much) that it should align with the cams. You mount it on the bow, where the sight sits. Then you move the laser tool sideways until it perfectly hits the string, up and down on the string. Then with an arrow on, you can adjust the sideways position of the arrow rest, until the laser hits the center of the arrow shaft from nock and to the center of the arrow point. Then you are centershot sideways."

The whole point is IT SHOULD ALIGN WITH THE CAMS, if it does not you have not got centre shot. The bow string will follow the path of the cams, if the cams are twisted to left or right the string will follow the cams.
I originally thought as you did and made my own laser tool, mounted in place of the sight and did as you did, align with string and point.
Shooting the bow showed that is was NOT set for center shot.
To prove my theory I put packing under the laser where it was mounted on the bow so it was not sat square on the riser and I could still line up the string and arrow point, but the arrow was obviously pointing off center.

Remember, that the laser pivots around a point at 90 deg to its mount, if the plane of that mount is not the same as the plane of the cams, the laser will NOT give you center shot. ( not saying it will not be close, but how can you tell.

My method is still more accurate because you are aligning directly with the plane of the cams, and it is a whole lot quicker and cheaper

 

[Thorvald]

I think this "discussion" (we are just talking about things) is a good one. We can both learn something and others might also learn something. But I still don't agree with you 100%.

If we take your method: What if the cams are not 100% straight? Especially at full draw, where cam lean most often are seen (rather than or less at still position). Then your bottom and top arrow would not necessary be parallel and would point in two different directions. How will you align the arrow rest arrow with that. Somewhere in the middle, judged by the eye? And with your method you cannot count for cam lean at full draw.

What I don't agree with is "The whole point is IT SHOULD ALIGN WITH THE CAMS". Well ok it's not totally correct to say I don't agree, but I think it is another way around. The (perhaps) very most correct way would be to fix possible cam lean first, before centering the arrow. And that could be done with the laser tool - both at still position as well as at full draw. For the latter you would need to be two, so the extra person can turn the laser, follow the string path and cams, to see if the cams are leaning. Or probably even better: Use a draw machine / draw board.

And then when you - with one method or another - have fixed cam lean, you could go ahead and set centershot - either with the parallel arrows method or I think even better - with the laser tool. I think both methods are equally fast, maybe laser tool a little faster and more accurate (faster to get accurate). Because with the parallel arrows method, you need to fix arrows to the two cams and you need to judge the alignment with the eye, what to some extend is not that accurate. But of course the laser tool needs to be of somewhat good quality and should have bubbles too. And the one I used last week is not that expensive. Something like $56 or £47 or around that.

So I think that we to some extend agree with each other and to some extend not.

 

[Thorvald]

By the way - what is the French tune method? You also said "Remember adjust sight at short range, adjust arrow rest at long distance, as you repeat the process, the adjustment will coincide at the point of alignment". Now we are of course talking fine tuning after the initial centershot alignment and perhaps paper test. But I am (slightly) surprised that you say to adjust arrow rest at long distance. But maybe you are saying that even if we do our best (with either method) to align the centershot etc., Then adjusting arrow rest at long distance, would be finetuning the centershot. But that of course requires 2 things: 1) You need to align your sight with the center shot, as good as possible - because else, if you shoot right or left at long distance, it could as well be the sight that should be moved. 2) Wind should not be too much of a factor.

Hmm and then you move the sight at short distance, vice versa until you hit the yellow at both short and long distance. Interesting.

Maybe it is a good fine tuning method. I just can't wrap my head totally around it. Because I would say that with the centershot set - you should not move your arrow rest anymore. I was thinking - because after setting center shot, I shot to the left at long distance - I would (but I didn't because I did not have enough time), move the sight a little to the left. And then my theory was that then I would also hit at the shorter distances.

But your method sounds interesting. I might want to look for a day with as little wind as possible and then put up a target at 20 m and one at 90 m and try to do this. I have never heard about this method before.

 

[Thorvald]

By the way - see also this video. Could also be interesting for people here:

 

[Howi]

Hi Thorvald, always willing to have a discussion with anyone

whatever method is chosen to set center shot, you have to accept that this is only the first stage.
This is the static center shot alignment NOT the alignment you will be shooting with (the dynamic alignment).
The dynamic alignment takes the static alignment and tunes it to your bow etc for normal shooting.
ideally what you want of course is that the windage does not change from shooting at 20 yds to 100yds.
Once we have a reasonable position to start with, we can then move onto the French Tune method to get the dynamic center shot.

The French Tune is as follows:-
start by shooting at 20 yds (or whatever you have available, I use 13 yds as that is all I can safely get in my back garden) and getting the arrows to impact in the center, I use a line drawn down the target face. At this (short) distance we adjust the sight left and right (windage) as required.
Then you go to the longest distance you can shoot on your field and adjust the arrow rest to get the arrows impacting in the center.
I should point out at this stage, you MUST be able to shoot a consistant group at your longest distance, otherwise you are chasing Unicorns.
Also I should point out you MUST have a micro tuneable arrow rest. (you are chasing twin horned unicorns otherwise).
Once you have your arrows in the center, then you go back to the short distance and adjust the sight windage to get the arrows in the center again. DO NOT adjust the arrow rest.
Repeat the above and you will find the two adjustments will meet where you do not need to alter your windage between distances.
You now have the true (dynamic) center shot, if you find your arrows off from center due to wind, ONLY adjust your windage.
I would mark your center shot windage point so you have a reference to set back to with no wind conditions.

I am not denegrating any method to find the static center shot but you must be aware of the limitations of that method.
Having tried all sorts of methods, I now use the arrow on the cam method (aligning the arrows by eye is easy and surprisingly accurate).
Being a Yorkshireman, we do not like spending money when not necessary, I object to spending £50 - £60 when it is not necessary and how often do you set up center shot, only when you have a new bow or arrow rest?

Interesting video you posted, I have non of that kit to start with.

By doing the alignment at full draw, that is the same as my dynamic tune method (french tune) but at a lot less £0.00 cost. (unless you do not have any parallel arrows of course!!!!!)

To each his own, good shooting everyone.

 

[Thorvald]

Hi Howi.
Yes, allways interesting to discuss archery related topics. Most often one learns something. And yes, the beauty in archery is exactly that each archer almost all have each their way of doing things, to get things to work for themselves, different opinions on equipment etc. etc.

About the cam alignment video first: The tool he uses is pretty smart, but also pretty expensive. About twice as expensive than the other laser tool I mentioned, that also can be used to check cam alignment (looks like this one tool can do it all). See also: Tru-Center LAT | Bow Maintenance | October Mountain Products But I think you could also use something long and straight, attached to the cams, at full draw, to do the same.

I agree with you that this static centershot, is the first stage. After that (if one wants to go further) comes fine tuning the centershot and/or finetuning the arrows to the bow (or bow to the arrows) depending on what you want. For example with paper test. I guess that the French tune method does not replace paper test, but I think I would do the French tune before paper test, because in theory, French tune would eliminate sideways paper holes. Then the rest of the paper test would finetune the dynamic spine of the arrows.

French tune: Hmmm - ok - I would have guessed it would be best to start at the long distance. Maybe one could do that if one is sure that that sight is in center with the static centershot. But maybe you are right about starting at the short distance and move the sight if necessary. I think my short distance, like 20 m is perfect, but would check at least with 3 arrows, before moving on to 90 m. At 90 m it seemed like I consequently shot to the left. Yes, my groups at 90 m is decent enough (for me) - at least 4 of 6 arrows in a group of maybe 25-30 cm diameter. So I would move my arrow rest to the right. Then back at 20 m, I'd guess I would now shoot a bit to the right, move sight a bit to the right. Then back at 90 m, I'd probably shoot a bit to the left, moving arrow rest to the right again, but probably less than before - and so on, untill I don't need to move sight or rest anymore. Then write down the windage setting, so I could allways get back to it, in case I adjust in due to windy condition. I might do this on Friday, because in the weather forecast it looks like there will be only 1 m/s wind in the morning. Well yes, you can say that after doing this, you don't really need to adjust cam alignment, because you have finetuned your dynamic centershot with whatever cam alignment or cam lean you have.

Very interesting method and interesting that I have never heard about it before. I have heard about other methods (like walk-back), but didn't study or do them, because it is only recently I became more interested in these (fine)tuning things.

 

[Howi]

Hi Thorvald,
I have tried paper tuning but not found it to be particularly useful, so now don't bother as I do not want to change anything after setting center shot.
Arrow spine for compound is not too important as there is little sideways movement of the string on release due to using a release aid.
The important point is that you do not go below the recommended spine.
Going above usually only means you will have a heavier arrow than you need so will widen sight marks.
My normal arrow length is 28 inches for a 26.5 inch draw on a 50 pound bow and spine of 500.
The only downside to my method of tuning is the British weather, we don't get many days that have little wind .
Trying to correct cam lean/alignment is another ball game all together, one could spend far too much time trying to correct things to the point you have no faith in the bow and having little time to shoot with any confidence.
After all, shooting(well) is what we are trying to do, I think far too many archers would spend time tuning to perfection than tuning the archer.
As my old mentor used to say, if you shoot once a month, you can only expect once a month scores.........

 

[Thorvald]

I agree with you about tuning too much. That is not what I want either. I also tend to test untill I am confident enough with the setup and then set and forget. Maybe I'll do some of it just to check things, because I am curious, but without necessarily change anything, if I am confident in the way the bow (and myself) at that point already shoots.

However I think a paper test is a good idea, to test spring tension of arrow rest, if the arrow is a little too stiff or too weak etc. I don't agree that arrow spine is not important for compound (but I agree it is probably less important than for recurve). Normally a slightly too stiff arrow is better for compound than a too weak arrow (as you also say I think). Yes there is no (or should optimally not be) or very little sideways movement. But there can be up/down movement that should be corrected to get correct dynamic spine of the arrow. So the arrow uses as little as possible energy with flexing. But else I (at least during the later years) use Archers Advantage to calculate my arrows / what spine would be best, before I buy shafts and what length would be best before I cut them.

I have some old ACC's (used for recurve bow) that I, without calculating them cut down untill they made same almost bullet hole in paper as my 3D arrows. Now I use these ACC's for outdoor target archery. I feel that maybe they have become too stiff and Archers Advantage also suggests that I should have cut them 1 - 1 1/4" longer, to get a more optimum spine. Sometimes I think I see that they make a kick in the air maybe midways or closer to the target. Maybe because they have become very short (24,1"). But they hit quite well, where I want them to hit, so maybe I won't do too much about it. Plus it would be for another topic - it is off topic for this topic, that is about string alignment / centershot alignment.

 

[Howi]

Yes! I too used Archers advantage, until it went online only - ditched in favour of SFA (Software for archers).
I have to say I prefer Archers Advantage, but, when needs must.....
I do like my arrows slightly longer than needed (about 1 inch), gives me some cutting room if front or back end damage I can rescue the arrow (but only for home practice use).
I do not shoot competitions these days, packed that in years ago, but now shoot only for my pleasure. I have shot a couple of club comps, handicap shoots and 3D field shoots but very rare.
The last handicap shoot I did, I was told by all the club experts I was wasting my time as I had no chance of winning due to my (then) handicap rating and the large number of new and improving archers in the club.
Guess who won!!!!
It is true to say compound is a fiddlers paradise and I am sure we have all spent far more time fiddling and tuning to the detriment of our shooting.
These days I set up center shot and arrow rest tension (Spott Hogg Infinity blade rest, narrow 0.008 for outdoors and wide 0.010 for fat indoor arrows) and leave it at that, otherwise we end up over thinking it and screwing up the work already done.
It is all down to me then and I need far more maintenance than my bow does

 

[Thorvald]

"It is all down to me then and I need far more maintenance than my bow does" - so true. Yes overthinking - also the shot execution - often does not help things improve. Yeah - I normally use 27" arrows for my appr. 25½" draw length (appr. 24" true draw length) + / -. And for the compound bow (42# draw weight) spine 440-500 depending on what arrow I want and availability. I just cut my old spine 620 ACC's so short to get appr. the same dynamic spine as my 27" spine 480 3D arrows. And perhaps they got a bit too short. But they do the job, are lightweight and can get nicely out at 90 m, without the need to adjust sight inwards towards the riser. I can keep it in the same position at all distances. I am not coing to attend target competitions other than maybe a yearly 900 round. Else I shoot 3D (and practice target). But for the fun and challenge of it I could see myself shoot long distance target practice now and then.

 

[Geophys2]

They seem very stiff for a 27" arrow on a 42# compound. Easton chart seems more in the 600-650 range.

 

[Thorvald]

It's not that bad acc. to Archers Advantage calculation. But that is also with quite a bit point weight, and with a slight higher peak weight. So I don't think it is that much off. I never use the charts anymore, but as I do it now - for example with this chart: https://eastonarchery.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/10/2018-Easton-TargetShaft-Selector.pdf - yes, I land in T6. If I use Eastons present online tool, with heavy point weight, they suggest spine range 500-400. I think they were not made "lighter" than 480, why I chose to go with these - plus I had before used FMJ 500, ACC Prohunting 440 - so it was in that range anyway.