Barebow collapse

[KidCurry]

I've put this under BB rather than methodology as it's not so busy.
What do you do to avoid collapse at full draw? It's seems to be a significant issue with BB. Jake Kaminski recently produced a video on the subject

but it really doesn't address creeping. He does go on to talk about a continuous draw, in another video, as you would if pulling through a clicker but I'm not happy with this as it means my arrow tip is constantly changing so my sight reference is constantly changing. I've come to the decision that it will be a case of loads of practice but without constantly videoing it's hard to measure success.
Does anyone have a way forward?

 

[geoffretired]

If I look at an archer at full draw( hypothetical archer) they usually do one of two things. Creep; or get rid of the arrow before they are really ready.
If you imagine an archer at full draw deliberately trying to maintain a certain draw length, you will see either, a creep or usually a "sawing" back and forth motion of the arrow on the rest. The size of the sawing motion may be very small, but it will be there.
I think that is the result of a continual pull/relax a bit; pull/ relax a bit action, as keeping still is all but impossible. It looks like a bit of a struggle ,too.
My thinking is that it can create a situation where releasing could happen on the "relax a bit" or on the "pull". The archer thinks they are maintaining their draw length; and may not sense the sawing, or the difference between pull and relax a bit.
Continually trying the draw just a little further, means the action ( in the mind at least) is always one of pulling. Like drawing through a clicker but a smaller amount than a normal clicker user. I feel it is easier to continue and control one action, than trying to stop and hold, with as much control

 

[Mark2]

Jake is OK once you're past the 4 minute book sell, but he is a clicker shooter.

The clicker is a fantastic tool to condition the brain to create a reflex action. It works great on dogs too. With a clicker the dynamic process of continuous draw has a goal. If something changes it is often immediately obvious at the clicker. The more refined your clicker control, the more obvious the change presents itself. It can also mask a host of sins and extend the shot sequence time when things change. The click becomes the shot.
Now for poor BB'er there is no objective as absolute as the click.
If you shoot 500 arrows a day, 7 days a week you will probably end up with an exceptionally consistent draw length.
For most of us that probably isn't an option. Alternatively, you reduce your shot cycle to an absolute minimum to so that the time to creep is less. Natalia Valeeva had a shot time from anchor to loose of around 1-1.5 seconds, and with a clicker.
As you said, the point of aim is always moving as you are drawing or creeping. They both work to the BB'ers disadvantage. It's a vicious circle. A fast loose with little opportunity for creep is likely to be much more consistent than a slow shot cycle and refined aim.

 

[dvd8n]

Jake is OK once you're past the 4 minute book sell, but he is a clicker shooter.

The clicker is a fantastic tool to condition the brain to create a reflex action. It works great on dogs too. With a clicker the dynamic process of continuous draw has a goal. If something changes it is often immediately obvious at the clicker. The more refined your clicker control, the more obvious the change presents itself. It can also mask a host of sins and extend the shot sequence time when things change. The click becomes the shot.
Now for poor BB'er there is no objective as absolute as the click.
If you shoot 500 arrows a day, 7 days a week you will probably end up with an exceptionally consistent draw length.
For most of us that probably isn't an option. Alternatively, you reduce your shot cycle to an absolute minimum to so that the time to creep is less. Natalia Valeeva had a shot time from anchor to loose of around 1-1.5 seconds, and with a clicker.
As you said, the point of aim is always moving as you are drawing or creeping. They both work to the BB'ers disadvantage. It's a vicious circle. A fast loose with little opportunity for creep is likely to be much more consistent than a slow shot cycle and refined aim.

Yes, I agree. If you haven't got your shot off in a couple of seconds you're better off coming down and starting again or you'll start sawing backwards and forwards.

 

[geoffretired]

As you said, the point of aim is always moving as you are drawing or creeping. They both work to the BB'ers disadvantage.

I think that this is true "up to a point" heehee.
It can be seen in a different light however. Imagine the draw is continuing to increase after string to face contact is made. The draw is moving the arrow point making it appear lower on the target. Because of the viewing angle, that movement is foreshortened. If the extra bit of the draw is 1mm the foreshortening reduces that to a fraction of that amount. The draw length to the point of release needs to be as consistent as possible. When that is done well, the aiming is repeating with equal consistency. The advantage is in the drawing rather than the stopping and creeping.
The other benefit is in the knowing that you are following a sound plan. One of the bad things to have in your head is an idea that things are not good.

 

[Riceburner]

The root issue here is that you're using the tip of the pile as the central point of your aiming tri-location. (eye - pile - target).

If you can aim without reference to the end of the arrow - wouldn't this issue go away?

Obviously not an easy thing....

 

[geoffretired]

I like the reasoning. What to use instead? Marks on the riser aren't allowed.
I think the moving of the point is exaggerated. If it is moving to a degree that is easily visible, can't the aim be elevated to bring about the "aim picture" that is wanted? If the draw length is the same... no problem. If the draw length differs; that is a problem in itself.

 

[Riceburner]

I like the reasoning. What to use instead? Marks on the riser aren't allowed.
I think the moving of the point is exaggerated. If it is moving to a degree that is easily visible, can't the aim be elevated to bring about the "aim picture" that is wanted? If the draw length is the same... no problem. If the draw length differs; that is a problem in itself.

Can't speak for others, but for the last year or two of my shooting (haven't shot regularly for a couple of years due to one thing or another), I was just drawing, looking at the target, and releasing.
Call it 'Intuitive', call it 'Instinctive', call it 'blind-luck', call it what you will, it was a lot of fun. It took ALL the pressure out: not that I am competitive anyway, this certainly killed competition; but it made shooting a lot of fun again, and when I stopped shooting, I was starting to improve - my aim was coming on and my 'scores' were improving, albeit slowly
I gave up 'competitive' shooting a while back as it simply destroyed the enjoyment of a day out in the woods (I only shoot field), and shifted to a horsebow.

 

[malbro]

That is basically how I shoot, I concentrate on the target whilst raising and drawing the bow, once I am at full draw I tend to release, now I know subconciously my mind is taking all sorts of items in the sight picture into account but I am not conciously using the arrow point to aim with. It has taken about a year to get to a reasonable standard but I am improving all the time, at 20 yards I can usually hit the target (3D targets of various sizes and distances), but I need a lot more practice at longer ranges so my mind/body can sort out the necessary positioning. I am pretty good in the horizontal plane at all ranges but getting the height right for each distance and being able to judge what the distance is needs more work, none of the targets are at set distances and in some cases dips in the ground give me problems. But getting back to the subject I have a fairly quick cycle of draw, check, release I certainly do not sit at full draw trying to aim, works for me and as with you I much prefer simply shooting for pleasure.
For me barebow means a bare bow shooting off the shelf, no sights of any kind, no clicker, no weights, and no rods, but it is a takedown recurve with carbon limbs.

 

[geoffretired]

Can't speak for others, but for the last year or two of my shooting (haven't shot regularly for a couple of years due to one thing or another), I was just drawing, looking at the target, and releasing.

Riceburner, that SOUNDS very different from the scenario I was writing about; but in reality, I feel it is quite similar. I think that the principle is much the same but the looking at the target is doing that and seeing an arrow point as a "mark" on the face, rather than not noticing the mark.

 

[malbro]

Riceburner, that SOUNDS very different from the scenario I was writing about; but in reality, I feel it is quite similar. I think that the principle is much the same but the looking at the target is doing that and seeing an arrow point as a "mark" on the face, rather than not noticing the mark.

When you are concentrating on the target then you dont conciously notice the arrow tip, I know its there but the focus of my vision is the target (in my case a 3D model) so the arrow tip is not in focus but it is in the sight window but out of focus. I am sure that sub conciously my brain is taking it into account its just the I am not conciously looking for the tip, I am focused on the target itself.

 

[geoffretired]

Hi Malbro, I am trying to connect what KidCurry is describing as his shot process, and his concerns about the draw; with what Riceburner has said. It seems you are saying similar things to Riceburner. Does KidCurry observe the arrow more closely than the two of you; making his form seem more different than it actually is.?

 

[jerryRTD]

there is a great deal written about what can be fitted to the bow but there si nothing that I can find about what can be fitted to the arrow. A friend of mine who shoots long bow had piles with a sharp edge on the blunt end of the pile. He would draw until this edge came into contact with his index finger

 

[dvd8n]

there is a great deal written about what can be fitted to the bow but there si nothing that I can find about what can be fitted to the arrow. A friend of mine who shoots long bow had piles with a sharp edge on the blunt end of the pile. He would draw until this edge came into contact with his index finger

I'd idly wondered about something similar; something like a BAR ring that I could feel on my finger or that I could feel bumping against the riser or rest but in the end I decided that it probably wasn't worth putting too much effort into when an official could too easily rule against it on the day.

 

[Howi]

If you practice with a clicker, you can find a point where, on full extension of drawing arm just gets you through the clicker, that point is what you want without the clicker. At this point you cannot extend any further without completely destroying your form. In other words your drawing arm cannot rotate back any further, therefore your arrow point cannot come back any further. This does of course need lots of practice to find and maintain that point without the clicker but I am sorry folks it is no pain no gain, there is NO easy fix otherwise everyone would be doing it. The archers who can do this consistently without seemingly much effort are the lucky ones, 99% of us aren't that lucky. The sawing back and forwards is a major problem for a lot of archers clicker or no clicker. I have seen many recurve archers who draw through the clicker but do not release instantly and they ALL creep forward but don' t believe you when you tell them because subconsciously they think they are releasing immediately. It is a case of trusting your aim at the point of release and THAT is another major problem for all archery disciplines. My old mentor told me archery is easy, it is just difficult to do well. As I am sure we have all found to be the case.

 

[geoffretired]

Yes, you are right about difficult to do well.
BUT... only if you compare your scores with those who give their lives over to shooting at world standard. I used to be capable of reaching 90% of the top level scores. I put in about 10% of the time they did.( probably far less)
You are also right about the sawing at full draw, with or without a clicker. Those with; are sawing as they approach where they think the clicker should have gone. Those without; saw when they are aiming and struggling to make it better..... while their sawing is making it worse.

 

[LAC Mark]

This all makes sense to me, the sawing action wont have a huge impact on short distance, but may be devastating at 100 yards, as when you pull back the arrow drops, you lift the pile to get the right sight picture, so you've increased your draw weight and raised the aim. you have the same (but opersite) effect when you creep.

This is something I suffer with, badly at times.

 

[geoffretired]

I think the sawing effect has a larger impact if it happens in such a way that the "creep" part of the sawing action produces a collapse of the bow arm.

 

[Howi]

Some good discussion here, my point about the sawing motion, is that it is a prelude to a dead release. We are all taught to keep pulling ( keeping tension on the bowstring even though the arrow no longer moves backwards) which should result in a dynamic release. Whenever I have seen someone's arrow sawing backwards and forwards it always results in the arrow point moving forwards up to an inch, a complete collapse of form and a dead release, irrespective of the archer throwing their hand backwards after the shot.

 

[Michael Burrows]

I've put this under BB rather than methodology as it's not so busy.
What do you do to avoid collapse at full draw? It's seems to be a significant issue with BB. Jake Kaminski recently produced a video on the subject

but it really doesn't address creeping. He does go on to talk about a continuous draw, in another video, as you would if pulling through a clicker but I'm not happy with this as it means my arrow tip is constantly changing so my sight reference is constantly changing. I've come to the decision that it will be a case of loads of practice but without constantly videoing it's hard to measure success.
Does anyone have a way forward?

this is the nub of barebow shooting. Everyone has a different anchoring point so I don't this there is one correct way. I've found using the John Demmner method just hits my nose and that hurts even with a bandage. So what I do and may assist you is pull the string to the tip of my nose and then expand so that the tab touches my lips (making sure I don't purse them) and then release while keeping the string blur and arrow tip in view. Practicing with like this has improved my consistency and thus my score. I get far less "stitching" the target vertically. Hope it helps