A/C Shafts and Multi Purpose Grounds

[inthemiddle]

As an anecdote to illustrate the difficulties of this debate - we recently had a compound archer join us who only had carbon arrows. He can happily shoot 50-70m with decent accuracy. However, he is using a hinge poorly with regular misfires (around 1 in 12). We can't force him to get coaching, his technique is arguably not dangerous (just bad), and telling him to buy a new release aid is like telling him to buy new arrows. He is financially secure enough that he had no problems buying new arrows, the only issue is that he went to an unnamed store that has the aforementioned 'idealogical' issues with prohibiting pure carbons and sold him a set of CX nanos saying 'these are perfectly findable with a metal detector because of the points'. Given we made him well aware that he needed to buy arrows with a full aluminium core I am a little disappointed in this otherwise reputable retailer who should know full-well the situation at UK clubs with shared fields.

Our club policy is very simple. It's a shared facility so NO CARBONS. Your compound archer needs to use different arrows if you use a shared field. my wife has a lovely set of Nano pro arrows that she cant use. They do however get the same sight mark as her ACE's so she can use them at comps if needs be.

We have reduced our arrow finding time considerably by implementing the 252 rule. Everyone has to complete three 252's to move up distance. Less for a longbow.
Regardless, everyone misses on occasion.
I have a love hate relationship with carbons but accept, as you say archery can be an expensive sport, if you want to compete you need to spend the money. Top class carbons are still expensive anyway.

 

[ArcheryFox]

Our club policy is very simple. It's a shared facility so NO CARBONS. Your compound archer needs to use different arrows if you use a shared field. my wife has a lovely set of Nano pro arrows that she cant use. They do however get the same sight mark as her ACE's so she can use them at comps if needs be.

We have reduced our arrow finding time considerably by implementing the 252 rule. Everyone has to complete three 252's to move up distance. Less for a longbow.
Regardless, everyone misses on occasion.
I have a love hate relationship with carbons but accept, as you say archery can be an expensive sport, if you want to compete you need to spend the money. Top class carbons are still expensive anyway.

Oh, I completely agree, hence why we clearly sent him to buy a set of A/C arrows, even going as far as to take a point out and show him the aluminium tube inside the shaft!! (there is a bit of a language barrier)
The conversation of 'nice new arrows, sorry but these are still not acceptable' was incredibly awkward. Hopefully he gets some more before outdoor season starts properly.

Interesting to hear how the 252 is used. Can I perhaps ask a few questions to take ideas to our next meeting:
Do you have different scores for each bowstyle or gender?
Why are longbows allowed fewer rounds?
How do you enforce this rule and stop people shooting further?
What do you do with new experienced members?
Does this apply all the way up to 80y/100y?

 

[inthemiddle]

Interesting to hear how the 252 is used. Can I perhaps ask a few questions to take ideas to our next meeting:
Do you have different scores for each bowstyle or gender?
Why are longbows allowed fewer rounds?
How do you enforce this rule and stop people shooting further?
What do you do with new experienced members?
Does this apply all the way up to 80y/100y?

We are only a small club of 30 archers ( they dont all turn up)

All new members from beginner courses or just external entry have this rule explained.

With Compounds and Recurve we tend to stick with the 252 rule, (an average of all reds) Longbow we go for an average of all blue. People tend to progress up the distances faster depending of bow style. Gender has nothing to do with it, or age. Kids are treated the same too. It starts at 20 yds.

Enforcement is easy, everyone agrees it a damn good idea and welcome not looking for arrows all day long. Also consider missing the target all the time is rather disheartening.

Experienced new members also seem happy to do this. 3 x 252's don't take long to do.

The distance cut off is usually 70m or 80 yds. We find most archers who can do a 252 at 80yds can hit 100 yds just fine.

We find new archers love 252's as it gives them goals to work on.

Hope this helps.

 

[Whitehart]

Thanks for all the input - very interesting.

Prompted by the talk of 252 badges and seeing a colleague gain his yellow belt at the weekend maybe AGB need to step in.

By this I mean make the 252 (or something similar) part of an archers official progression from the beginners course and make it an AGB award like say belts are in judo.

I assume yellow belts don't go fighting black belts and so it should be that archers should concentrate on improving form and consistency and only shoot up to the distance they have a 252 badge resulting in better shooting, archers progressing and less arrows missing the boss then the problem will not be such an issue it might also reduce membership churn as archers will be getting help past the few weeks of a beginners course and have a plan to progress.

 

[inthemiddle]

Thanks for all the input - very interesting.

Prompted by the talk of 252 badges and seeing a colleague gain his yellow belt at the weekend maybe AGB need to step in.

By this I mean make the 252 (or something similar) part of an archers official progression from the beginners course and make it an AGB award like say belts are in judo.

AGB would do well to listen to this but it can be implemented by any club. The badges look really cool The Badge Company - Archery Club Badges

 

[Big George]

Thanks for all the input - very interesting.

Prompted by the talk of 252 badges and seeing a colleague gain his yellow belt at the weekend maybe AGB need to step in.

By this I mean make the 252 (or something similar) part of an archers official progression from the beginners course and make it an AGB award like say belts are in judo.

I assume yellow belts don't go fighting black belts and so it should be that archers should concentrate on improving form and consistency and only shoot up to the distance they have a 252 badge resulting in better shooting, archers progressing and less arrows missing the boss then the problem will not be such an issue it might also reduce membership churn as archers will be getting help past the few weeks of a beginners course and have a plan to progress.

AGB recently redid the Progress Award scheme.
https://www.archerygb.org/shoot-compete/compete/awards-records-achievements/progress-awards-scheme/

You could use it both to give new archers something to work on and say they need to hit each level before moving up a distance.

 

[Whitehart]

AGB recently redid the Progress Award scheme.
https://www.archerygb.org/shoot-compete/compete/awards-records-achievements/progress-awards-scheme/

You could use it both to give new archers something to work on and say they need to hit each level before moving up a distance.

Thanks BG this slipped under my radar I wonder how many others individuals and clubs have missed it.

The AGB scheme does not go up to 100 yards/90m for men and 80yards/70m for women.

Yes ITM archers should be restricted to distances they have proved they are capable of putting more than 95% perhaps higher of their arrows on the boss (we all miss occasionally) - think of the time saved looking for arrows on a club evening.

The problem with all these schemes is the voluntary aspect, it needs to be mandatory to carry any weight in the outside world, with all AGB clubs buying in to the process (like Judo and belts) so that will never happen.

But if it did it can be used as a tool with insurance companies to prove all is being done to reduce all those claims for footballers getting stabbed with carbon shafts...have there been any in the UK?

Then I think the A/C problem will be less of an issue and archers will be able to use cheaper all carbon shafts and even the insurance companies would be on board.

I can see the objections especially from existing archers so for the 1st year of the scheme, depending on your classification you would get an exemption up to say 50m/60yrds for those 3rd to 1st and Bowmen/MB/GMB get a full exemption from having to do the badges.

It is not as if archers have a choice ACC's are going/gone the outdoor season is just around the corner - the current solutions are more expensive but better products. TBH my view doing nothing will probably be the way things will go and archers will just accept paying more.

 

[inthemiddle]

TBH my view doing nothing will probably be the way things will go and archers will just accept paying more.

Yup this is probably what will happen

 

[bimble]

Where has this info come from, it's not that I don't trust you personally, but I've read all sorts and would like to know a definitive answer.

I suspect it's a case of mixing up ACE and ACG (which have been discontinued)

 

[KidCurry]

My biggest grip with the retailers, with exception of one or two, at present, especially when it comes to archery progression, is even mid priced arrows are now being sold in one dozen sets. So going from buying a couple of ACCs when you break some, to having to buy a dozen Procomp when you only really need two or three is going to hurt the casual archers.

 

[Whitehart]

My biggest grip with the retailers, with exception of one or two, at present, especially when it comes to archery progression, is even mid priced arrows are now being sold in one dozen sets. So going from buying a couple of ACCs when you break some, to having to buy a dozen Procomp when you only really need two or three is going to hurt the casual archers.

These particular shafts are promoted by the manufacturer as sorted and sold in 12's for better grouping - dealers can only buy them in 12's some archers would not be happy having a batch of C3's and the replacement a C5 leaving the dealer buying 12 shafts to sell 1 - quite a commitment financially for most dealers, for a commodity with very low margins.

In most cases a new ACE/X10 for example will not group with the current archers set due to wear and tear. I have two part sets of x10's and even after refletching and not being able to know which is from which original set at 70m they sort them selves out on the target and two distinct groups are visible.

Interestingly the manufacturers of all carbon shafts claim this does not happen - Carbon Express can supply what they say are identical shafts from the markings on the shaft.

 

[KidCurry]

These particular shafts are promoted by the manufacturer as sorted and sold in 12's for better grouping - dealers can only buy them in 12's...

I'm not talking about ACEs/Protours especially, although ACEs seem to have dropped their batch markings such as C4. My latest ACEs have no batch marking at all. But arrows like Victory Vaps/Advance Procomps are not batch tested etc. I know one supplier who sells Victory VAP Elites and Procomps in singles and one who sells ACEs in singles.
The worst part of this is for improving archers who want to test carbon/carbon-ally but are put off due to having to buy a doz.

 

[Rik]

These particular shafts are promoted by the manufacturer as sorted and sold in 12's for better grouping - dealers can only buy them in 12's some archers would not be happy having a batch of C3's and the replacement a C5 leaving the dealer buying 12 shafts to sell 1 - quite a commitment financially for most dealers, for a commodity with very low margins.

In most cases a new ACE/X10 for example will not group with the current archers set due to wear and tear. I have two part sets of x10's and even after refletching and not being able to know which is from which original set at 70m they sort them selves out on the target and two distinct groups are visible.

Interestingly the manufacturers of all carbon shafts claim this does not happen - Carbon Express can supply what they say are identical shafts from the markings on the shaft.

I could theorise that as an artefact of the construction. It's known that ali tubes alter characteristics through being "worked" (bent repeatedly) over time, so it could be that the changes are not the external wear on the carbon, but due to the metal component. More evidence needed, though.

On the other hand, I've been scrupulous about rotating the use of shafts in a set, after I weighed up a set of Navigators after a couple of years of use, and found that the shaft weight range had expanded from sub one grain to more than five.

 

[Whitehart]

At the end of the day we are where we are, there is not currently an arrow to directly replace the ACC and clubs for whatever the reason still ban all carbon arrows.

Perhaps archers will have to put a bigger priority on their arrow selection and budget to improve scores rather than a quick fix gadget, that eventually spends more time in a box than being used.

Long-term will this affect archery growth in the UK - who knows.

 

[4d4m]

Do Easton have some kind of patent on the alu/carbon composite construction? Given the obvious market for an inexpensive A/C/C substitute I’m surprised there don’t seem to be any competitors, even knock offs from China.

 

[4d4m]

It’s annoying.

I don’t shoot a lot of target these days but liked to practice longer ranges with my field bows (with full carbons) at my target club.
Previously I wasn’t bothered as my target club didn’t have restrictions on carbons, but we lost our grounds and some prospects are obviously sharing grounds with sports clubs.

 

[Rik]

Do Easton have some kind of patent on the alu/carbon composite construction? Given the obvious market for an inexpensive A/C/C substitute I’m surprised there don’t seem to be any competitors, even knock offs from China.

I don't think so, or Doosung/Cartel would have had problems selling their range in the US...

 

[Whitehart]

Overall the market for low cost entry level shafts is a small market compared to all the carbon shafts sold each year Worldwide, it is a UK issue and will eventually solved in the UK.

 

[4d4m]

Overall the market for low cost entry level shafts is a small market compared to all the carbon shafts sold each year Worldwide, it is a UK issue and will eventually solved in the UK.

There must be plenty of other countries where target archery is done on shared sports fields. Presumably they don’t regard it as an issue then? ACC aren’t really entry level shafts given the price, I’d class them as mid range.

 

[Shirt]

There must be plenty of other countries where target archery is done on shared sports fields. Presumably they don’t regard it as an issue then? ACC aren’t really entry level shafts given the price, I’d class them as mid range.

I can speak with some experience for Europe. It's a sport, not a hobby. So the concept of people shooting at distances beyond what they are capable of scoring well at just doesn't exist - you train to score well and perform well. So:
- because it's a sport, clubs that have to share a field can usually get more time than UK clubs - the idea of two x two hour sessions a week wouldn't fly, they will generally have greater time available.
- clubs usually receive some sort of funding (not huge amounts but a few thousand Euro a year) from their town / region because they are a sports club, not just a hobby or pasttime.
- there is usually a pretty effective coaching structure to bring people in, learn and improve. This includes clubs actually supporting a clear path to competition and because it's a sport, people have started in order to compete so this is aligned with 'customer expectations'.
- there's clear structure around a small number of metric rounds so progression is easily monitored (you don't have to have handicap tables that convert your New St Nicholas into a Junior Western to prove you're 0.5 points better today) and so less confusion about what is progress and only a limited number of sight marks needed.
- the 252 badge thing isn't necessary because most people won't progress beyond 30m until they can hit 300 or more,
- the level of individual and collective responsibility is massively higher than any UK club I've ever seen. Most UK clubs have a core of people (committee or not) who do most of the work and admin; there's also a large number of members that turn up once a week and disappear after about an hour. That just doesn't happen at all the European clubs I've visited; everybody helps out. Equally, an individual will look for their arrow until it is found rather than a cursory hunt and then declare it "lost".

And so the need for something with a metal core which apparently is essential to finding arrows with a metal detector - well, it's not a requirement.