Do we need fletchings indoors?

R

rgsphoto

Guest
LineCutter said:
Might that have something to do with the obscene amount of weight at the pointy end of your shafts? :)
IIRC the Easton charts assume something like 70gr (can't be bothered to check exactly). I've already muttered somewhere else that I've got really rather nice tuning from 28.25" 2016s at 39#, but part of that is stuffing 120gr of weight at the front end. (Mr Easton recommends something like a 1916 or 2014 shaft)
Don't start Marcus off on the point weight thing. You know he does not think it makes any difference to arrow tune. But I suspect you have opened a gate now...lol:rotfl:

Soz Marcus, only harmless fun!:jump:
 

Marcus26

Well-known member
rgsphoto said:
Can't explain that one Marcus, can you?

I wonder if the charts are less accurate the shorter the arrow? I shoot 28" ish arrows from a recurve, as does a friend of mine. I notice the problem was very severe with the 610 Navigator. Every thing else is OK. Some of the X7's also ended up too stiff too.
Yeah, tuning techniques vary (see my recurve tuning thread.

My wife's Axis with FX limbs tuned in perfectly using the charts (27" draw)
She then changed to the Samick Masters with 68" Extreme limbs, no issues, perfect.
66" Masters limbs do the same, and so do the 66" Extremes. If anything she goes a little stiffer than the charts suggest. Must work, she shot at the World Target with that setup.

A few weeks ago I set up some arrows for one of my students just back from the AIS. 27" draw, G3 limbs and they tuned perfectly first end. She then shot a 324 at 50m on a 80cm face.

I suspect the problem is that we as archers tend to believe that bow tuning and arrow selection is a black art requiring much experimentation and luck to get right. In reality it is simple physics that is easily predictable, as long as you are aware of all the variables during the tuning process.
 

sky_high30

The American
Fonz Awardee
Ironman
American Shoot
Seen as we seem to be selecting arrows for people here...

25in Riser, Medium Hoyt FX limbs, around 38-40lb on the fingers. Drawing 28.5in. Shafts for ACC, ACE and (In case I have a lottery win) X10 - the shaft selector program says ACC 680, 620 ACE, 600 X-10. This seem sensible? Senior Aardvark recomended slightly stiffer ACE's when asked - 570. Indoors, a bare 1916 Platinum goes above and right - I'm happy it ends up on the same boss, but intend doing more tuning when outdoors.
 
R

rgsphoto

Guest
sky_high30 said:
Seen as we seem to be selecting arrows for people here...

25in Riser, Medium Hoyt FX limbs, around 38-40lb on the fingers. Drawing 28.5in. Shafts for ACC, ACE and (In case I have a lottery win) X10 - the shaft selector program says ACC 680, 620 ACE, 600 X-10. This seem sensible? Senior Aardvark recomended slightly stiffer ACE's when asked - 570. Indoors, a bare 1916 Platinum goes above and right - I'm happy it ends up on the same boss, but intend doing more tuning when outdoors.
I would check with Max on this as he has the same setup as you. He shoots 670 ACE's. As I did. He has two sets of 620's too but you will be seeing them on ebay shortly as they always tuned stiff. Again the 3-04 ACC will be spot on. The high/right 1916 is down to a too low nock point and a slightly stiff arrow. Move the nock point up a little and they will be fine, perhaps back the button off a little more too and all will be well. No idea about X10's can't afford em and at your draw length/power I don't think they would go to 90m/ 100yds anyway, depending on your anchor point. Cheers Rich
 

MikeD

New member
rgsphoto said:
Ok you shoot the same setup as me, apart from the 66" limbs. I used 68's. I had a little more on my fingers too, 39lb. I shot 3-04 ACC's and 670 ACE's they grouped great. As far as I can tell the 3L-18 should tune quite stiff? Two reason why you think you have weak arrows.

1. The short limb is very fast? If so can I buy the limbs from you as they must be the fastest limbs on earth! lol


2. Something wrong with the way you are tuning? I wonder if the arrows are tuning stiff but you may be reading the info wrong? A soft button indicates a stiff arrow not a weak one. If you are tuning right, then I give in, no idea. ??? I would put money on the 3-04 tuning better. Sorry to say it, but you have the wrong arrows Mike. Ebay is your friend.
OK I suspect you may be right, but I havn't finished tearing my hair out yet. Last night I tightened the button up to what felt about right... I checked and adjusted the centre shot and went for it. The sight was set neutral. I shot 3 or 4 ends of 3 fletched and two unfletched arrows. Good grouping and the bare shafts were in the group. Oh Joy! By sheer luck I'd fixed it. I carried on shooting not bothering with the bare shafts. I was working on form and not really paying much attention to the height of the groups. After while I did notice that my groups where about 4" lower on the target (at 18m that is a lot and on a 40cm target is not at all pretty). So I shot bare shafts again on the next end. They were about 4" to the left of the main group. Oh Bugger!

Then really strange. I stopped shooting for a few ends while I got three other people to check my bow. It was decided I had the centre shot offset too much, so I adjusted back towards the centre to their satisfaction. I shot three fletched and two unfletched arrows again. Woo Hoo 10, 10, 9 with the fletched and 10 9 with the unfletched and I hadn't even moved the sight. The unfletched where maybe slightly low and slightly left of the group. So I shoot another end. Back to 4" lower and the bare shafts about 4" to the left. Aarrggg!

Unfortunately that was the end of the evening. At this point I suspect I am the problem, but I'm at a loss to know how I could be effecting the speed to that extent. I checked the bracing height at the end of the evening (21cm), it was exactly the same as at the beginning. The tiller was also the same at about 6mm more on the upper limb.

To put things in perspective I used to shoot around 540 Portsmouth, and I use a clicker. Club coaches cannot see anything particularly wrong with my form or consistency, but I am a D class archer at this point.

I've almost decided to go back to my old limbs and X7 arrows, just to prove to myself that I can still shoot 540 and that something horrible hasn't happened to my form coinciding with these new limbs and arrows.

I believe you are right and the arrows are too stiff, in which case old 1914 X7s should be the correct spine. Though why the ACCs shoot well for the first few ends and after a rest is still a mystery. So I'll try tuning the bow for the X7s and see what happens. If they are OK I'll look for some 3-04s or equivalent Navigators or ACE for outdoors.

Thanks for you help and I be interested to see if you can shed any light on the mystery!

Mike
 

Yew Selfbow

Active member
The whole question of bare shaft tuning and the validity of bare shaft tuning and then going on to shoot a fletched arrow is a very interesting one. This may be of some interest to some members.
In 2001, I was supervising two PhD. students who were investigating postural balance recovery mechanisms in patents following C.V.A. and head trauma. The investigation involved applying ramped loads to displace the centre of mass of the patient using orthognally mounted linea actuators moumted on two force platforms. The students involved were both recurve archers, so conversations soon got around to the mechanics of archery and in particular the dynamic characteristics of a fletched -v- unfletched arrow. Finding ourselves with a little time on our hands we decided to modify the postural balance apparatus into a shooting mechanism to identify the position of impact between fletched and unfletched arrows.
We began by mounting a bow (Yamaha Eolla) to one of the actuator mounting frames. We then connected a modified Cascade release aid to a S beam load cell (L.C.M. Systems) and connected the load cell to one of the accuators (I.D.Mod). The release aid was activated by a small servo micro switch triggered by a pre set threshhold load from the load cell.
So the shooting system was quite simple:- A rigid mounted bow was drawn back at a rate of 0.3 mt/sec via a linea actuator to a pre set load determined by a S beam load cell. The arrow was released by a servo micro switch which controlled a release aid. The entire system was position adjustable in all three spatial planes and mounted on force platforms (Kistler Instruments) to measure and check for vibtation and displacement.
In order to measure the positional difference between fletched and unfletched arrows we custom printed target faces with 40 concentric rings spaced 5mm apart. We added radient lines from the centre at 5 degree intervals. This would give us a co-ordinate reference system for locating and recording the arrows position on the target.
To eliminate any variables we used a single unfletched arrow. The arrow was shot from the bow to the bow's owner considered optimum set up. The whole shooting assembly was moved to centre the point of impact on the centre of the target.
25 unfletched arrows were shot (1 per target face) to record a base line accuracy. All 25 shots were within 5mm of the centre and a 5 degree displacement. We then Fletched the same arrow and shot the arrow again. All fletched arrows impacted around line 28 (14 cms from centre) @around 55 degrees.
We then decided to change some of the bow set up perameters (knocking point, button spring tension, button position etc) We made one change at a time and repeat the test.
The results were very interesting.
We could not duplicate the impact positions of the fletched and unfletched arrow with any bow set up combination we tried. The fletched arrow was constantly impacting the target high and right. All changes we made to the bow set up resulted in both unfletched and fletched arrow changing the position of impact.. In short we could not get the two types of arrow to impact the same position on the target.
This started some interesting discussion as to the validity of bare shaft tuning, the main one being, Why would you tune a bow and arrow set up with a bare shaft and then go and shoot an arrow that has differing mechanical characteristics (drag co-efficient, centre of mass position, weight, etc) from the one used to tune the bow?
Perhaps it would give better results to tune a bow with the arrows you are going to use in competition.
 

Rik

Supporter
Supporter
Beats said:
Yeah, but do we need fletchings on any of them? :raspberry
Depends on the FOC... Shaft stabilisation is a function of the "fletching area" - which includes some of the area of the shaft behind the centre of mass as well. If your FOC is high, then the shaft area counts as a significant amount of fletching, by itself. Ever wondered why people talk about being able to get away with smaller fletchings on carbon arrows? Higher FOC is the reason - more weight in the point changes the flight characteristics of the shaft.
 
R

rgsphoto

Guest
MikeD said:
I believe you are right and the arrows are too stiff, in which case old 1914 X7s should be the correct spine. Though why the ACCs shoot well for the first few ends and after a rest is still a mystery. So I'll try tuning the bow for the X7s and see what happens. If they are OK I'll look for some 3-04s or equivalent Navigators or ACE for outdoors.

Thanks for you help and I be interested to see if you can shed any light on the mystery!

Mike
Hi Mike

Been there and done all this. I suppose that's why I am keen to get your problem solved. I know it can be very frustrating and expensive!

First of all verticle hight error has nothing to do with arrow spine. ( but i'm sure someone will try and disprove that. lol )Any variation in arrow height between a fletched and an unfletched arrow is down to one of two things.

Nock point too high or too low, or basically you just missed!

Frustration does not bring out the best form in anyone. I suspect a lot of the variations in arrow groups will be down to frustration, fatigue, and perhaps arrow contact due to the arrow being too stiff.

You have made the right decision Mike. Get the X7's shooting well again and get some confidence back in your shooting, then perhaps try again with the ACC's. But in all honesty you are wasting your time with the 3L-18's they are too stiff. However indoors they will probably be OK, not ideal but OK, X7's are a better option.

You are very limited as to the point weight you can buy for the ACC 3 series. 100 gn max. I shoot the same arrow, at 25" long (3" overdraw) I bought them from Max last year as he found them too stiff too for his recurve. I have experimented adding solder to the 100gn points giving 110 gn in total. This may help, but I'm not sure an extra 10gn will be enough to weaken the spine for your application. Go easy on the Navigator. Don't buy 610's, buy 660's That's another story. 670 Ace should be good too.

Good luck

Rich
 

Beats

Member
I decided at the begining of the indoor season to switch to thick x7's to benifit from linecutters, I chose ones as close in spine to my ACE's (as I was doing well with these).
But I could never get them to group well, I also had tab clearance problems with the bigger nocks.
Basically even though I persisted with them, they knocked 30 points off my Portsmouth score from the previous year. I've now switch back to the ACE's and recovered 20 of those lost points. Now I'm happy with my equipment I can concentrate more on me!

Beats (?80 worse off though!)
 

MikeD

New member
rgsphoto said:
Hi Mike

First of all verticle hight error has nothing to do with arrow spine. ( but i'm sure someone will try and disprove that. lol )Any variation in arrow height between a fletched and an unfletched arrow is down to one of two things.

Nock point too high or too low, or basically you just missed!


Good luck

Rich
Thanks Rich. I'm about to go on holiday for a week, but I'll let you know how I get on with the X7s when I get back. I'll shoot a couple of dozen arrows before I start tuning to make sure the bow and I are settled. I've scratched from the shoot that is the day after I get back and will go tuning instead.

Just further to the bit above I'm fairly confident the knocking point is close to correct. The strange effect is those ends where the group is good and centred, with the bare shafts in the group. Followed by later groups that are low, with the bare shafts off to the left. Somehow I'm managing to shoot a group that looks like the bow is tuned at the beginning of a session or after a rest, but after that settles to showing the arrows are too stiff. Of course this could well be coincidence and in reality I'm doing something very wrong with those first ends and somehow managing to get lucky. After that everything settles to normal. If it isn't that maybe there is something with the limbs that I need to be aware of. I have heard of people stringing their bow several hours or even the day before a shoot to ensure it has settled down come the start of the shoot.
 

sky_high30

The American
Fonz Awardee
Ironman
American Shoot
Thanks for the input Rich - what makes you think that X10's won't go the distance, whereas you imply ACE's will - x10's are 35g heavier, and ACC's are 42g heavier?
 
R

rgsphoto

Guest
Yew Selfbow said:
The whole question of bare shaft tuning and the validity of bare shaft tuning and then going on to shoot a fletched arrow is a very interesting one. This may be of some interest to some members.

Perhaps it would give better results to tune a bow with the arrows you are going to use in competition.
Interesting article, but I feel rather inconclusive, we don't shoot in labs and people arn't consistent machines. Fletches correct errors in people, bow setup, and poor spine matching and most importantly help keep the arrow direction in the wind. Trying to tune a bow in any wind is totally pointless. Without fletches very few new archers would hit anything! And a lot of old ones too! lol

The trick with a bare shaft is to show error in bow tune/spine matching before we stick fletches to them that ultimately mask these errors. If we can get both fletched and unfletched arrows to land in the same place ( within reason) this shown the bow/arrow combination is set to it's optimum level of performance, by showing the fletches arn't working hard to correct any errors.

Imagin we shoot three fletched arrows at a target say 20m away, with good form I may add. They land in a group. We then shoot three bare shafts at the same place. They land 4" to the right! The bow/arrow combo is set to put arrows 4" right but we have added fletches to force the arrows left. so the fletch is working hard to correct the bow setup error. When they land in the same place the fletches are doing nothing, unless it's windy or we produce a poor loose etc. A perfectly spined arrow is much easier to group and tune than a poorly spined arrow. What does a lonbow archer do with a poorly spined arrow? He puts it in the bin or perhaps at best adds or removes point weight, or reduces/increases the bow weight by messing with the brace hight a little.

A button on a recurve helps an archer shoot his bow with a window of tuneability, and it helps correct poor looses, but ultimatly it's important to find an arrow spine that matches the bow as near perfectly as possible. In an ideal world we need an arrow to shoot streight without a button, at all distances, just like a longbow/barebow. This is Marcus's point here ( another thread), too much adjustment with buttons is just a compromise. A very stiff button or very weak button will give a sight ring position way out from the centre shot, left or right. This then gives poor walkback results and a need for windage correction at distance changes on a Fita type round. I now believe the best test of good arrow spine is a walk back test. ( after bareshaft tuning) Indoor archery does not suffer this problem as we mainly shoot at one distance for the whole round, therefore indoor archery is less demanding of arrow/bow tune. Pheeew said enough on that subject.

Then we add people and mess it all up! lol
Your last comment goes without question.
 
R

rgsphoto

Guest
sky_high30 said:
Thanks for the input Rich - what makes you think that X10's won't go the distance, whereas you imply ACE's will - x10's are 35g heavier, and ACC's are 42g heavier?

Here are some weights from the Easton shaft selector of given arrows assuming 80-90 gn points ( the X10 normally has a heavier point too, probably 100 + gn)

670 ACE - 261 gn
650 X10 - 292 gn
3-04 ACC - 302 gn

As you can see the ACC is the heaviest arrow, the X10 is the next heaviest (probably the same as the ACC with a heavier point). The ACE is going to be the lightest arrow you can buy ( ok some pure carbons can match them, Beeman energy's are cheap!, Triples may be as light too?)

All things being equal 1 gn = Anything from 2" to 4" at 90m

So imagine the ACE lands in the middle of the gold at 90m at a given sight mark.
Assuming a 2" drop per gn ( best case, probably more ). Shoot an ACC 3-04 ( 41 gn heavier) that will land 81" below the ace! ( 41X2=81) in the grass, scary yes? Imagine how much you will need to adjust your sight to get the ACC to group with the ACE? Also imagine the flight path? Into orbit first. You will run out of sight mark. In this case the X10 will give you similare problems ( 61" or 5 feet drop)

A lot depends on your anchor point, mine was very high so I lost a lot of cast. I ended going Compound as I used to struggle to get 90m with anything but an ACE, even then I was on the brink of my sight.


Good shooting
 
Last edited:

Yew Selfbow

Active member
rgsphoto
...I dont disagree with any thing you've said.
We felt that we needed to eliminate as many of the variables as possible.. unfortunatly (as you quite rightly said) we had to eliminate the biggest variable .. the archer, so we could be consistant with all the experimental shot. All this research actually told us was that fletched and unfletched arrows behave differently. I suspect most of us knew that all ready.
 

joetapley

New member
Yew Selfbow - bareshaft re fletched

Every time that story is told it never mentions a) how far the arrow point was from the target and b) Where the zero angle position is. Can you enlighten us?
 
R

rgsphoto

Guest
MikeD said:
Thanks Rich. I'm about to go on holiday for a week
Have a good holiday and just chill out for a while. We can look at problem when you get back. Where do you live? I am happy to have a look at your bow if you like, however I doubt the limbs will have much influence inless there is a dire technical problem with them. A modern bow will shoot well from the start, sighters are enough to get it settled in for the rest of the day.

Have a good one!

Rich
 
R

rgsphoto

Guest
Yew Selfbow said:
rgsphoto
...I dont disagree with any thing you've said.
We felt that we needed to eliminate as many of the variables as possible.. unfortunatly (as you quite rightly said) we had to eliminate the biggest variable .. the archer, so we could be consistant with all the experimental shot. All this research actually told us was that fletched and unfletched arrows behave differently. I suspect most of us knew that all ready.
Hello Yew,

Just out of interst how do you tune your bow/arrow combination?

Cheers

Rich
 
Last edited:
Top