Drop tune method, not just for tuning

[steve Morley]

I was helping a club member tune his new arrows, after we got the basic bareshaft tune we used the drop method to figure out the fine plunger tune.

My Vanquish/CV limb set shows me just how great a WA3D setup it really is (33y max) on my 10y crawl walkback from 10 to 35y I very very little drop I would remain close enough to the 10 ring on all WA3D distances (with good Form), for IFAA 3D (60y max) I can be 3 yards out at 50y and still be in the kill if I executed the shot with confidence.

What I do in training is I deliberately shoot 5 yards either side of my distance, for example I would shoot my 30y crawl at 30 yards, 25 yards and 35 yards, the feedback I get can helps me feel comfortable about making strong shots if I'm not 100% certain on the distance.

Obviously it's always better to know/calculate the exact distance but it's not always possible, so knowing your personal and equipment limits will help maintain a higher level of confidence, making a shot because you're not 100% confident of hitting just increases the chance of executing with poor form which in turn increases the chance of a complete miss.

Set yourself up so you can execute the shot with 100% confidence, hoping is just not enough.

Hope this helps.

 

[geoffretired]

I like the thinking in that!
It seems to me that some archers can get bogged down in their routine; to the point where their routine unwittingly includes being fearful of the outcome. Most often, the fear seems to stem from their aim being slightly too wobbly for peace of mind. That in turn impacts on the finishing of the shot.
I tend to work with Olympic recurve archers and I will be using a modified version of your thinking.( Thanks for the idea) I will ask them to set their sights slightly high/low and see how much it moves their group and what effect that has on their scores.

 

[steve Morley]

The method is easier for sighted archers or Stringwalking but it can be adapted for Gap shooters to help learn the bow faster. I would tape my 30 yard riser gap mark on my Longbow and shoot it through a range of distances, it gave me a lot of feedback on learning how the arrow shoots at various distances.


After a while you don't even need the tape. I can pick up a Longbow for the first time, If I figure out my 30y aim and could predict the gaps at all the other distances with a fair degree of consistency without even shooting those distances.

For unsighted archers fully understanding how your bow shoots at various ranges is key to consistent/accurate shooting.

 

[geoffretired]

Hi Steve, the aspect that really grabbed my attention was the way it could demonstrate how the shots don't move from the target so much as it is sometimes feared. I think it is very easy to get too busy with the sight and to start feeling that is the main part involved in hitting the gold.
Your ideas can be used to demonstrate that the truth is about making a good shot.

 

[steve Morley]

[video=youtube;1mmAqaqMkN8]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1mmAqaqMkN8&list=UUvepGyjq9IzFCgGiCEEzGUg[/video]

Some of the guys on Tradtalk said such a small drop at 30 yards wasn't possible. One said his rig at 230fps if shot on 25y crawl at 30y he would be a good 5" low in most cases, I've no idea how fast this setup is but to shoot 20y off my normal crawl and still be a respectable shot just shows how well the Border CV's and Vanquish match up so brilliantly, not something I would get away with past 35 yards but interesting to see what is possible.

The CV-H limbs are 42# and shooting CT Cheetah's with 20g inserts and 105g screw in points 315g total.

Hope you like.

enjoy

 

[JohnK]

[video=youtube;1mmAqaqMkN8]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1mmAqaqMkN8&list=UUvepGyjq9IzFCgGiCEEzGUg[/video]

Some of the guys on Tradtalk said such a small drop at 30 yards wasn't possible.

I think the reaction over there is hilarious

 

[steve Morley]

When Jimmy Blackmon made a Gap video trying to explain a flat spot around 25 yards which could be taken advantage of in IBO distances out to 30y, it caused a huge argument on ArcheryTalk saying it wasn't physically possible , yes the arrow it constantly being pulled down by gravity, but our aim/launch angle is not always totally horizontal to the ground, it was mostly the Instinctive guys that couldn't/wouldn't grasp the concept.

I think the point I was making, specially with short range IBO/WA 3D distances is people stress about the distance/aim far too much, if you execute the shot with confidence, even being 5 yards out on distance estimation you're likely still going to hit the vitals. Unless you're shooting a 700g arrow out of a 30# bow lol

 

[geoffretired]

A good way to demonstrate what is being said, is to set up for 20y indoors and walk 2 y closer each arrow, without adjusting the sight. Most newer archers will be surprised to see their arrows landing lower rather than higher as they get closer.
Many archers, doing walkback tuning for the first time, experience this as they start to walk back and find the longer arrows land higher than the first ones. Often it is considered to be a bad shot and gets ignored.
I agree with your thinking regarding the over stressing on aiming( whatever system). I like the idea of being able to demonstrate the fact that shooting better is more important than aiming too seriously.

 

[4d4m]

When Jimmy Blackmon made a Gap video trying to explain a flat spot around 25 yards which could be taken advantage of in IBO distances out to 30y, it caused a huge argument on ArcheryTalk saying it wasn't physically possible , yes the arrow it constantly being pulled down by gravity, but our aim/launch angle is not always totally horizontal to the ground, it was mostly the Instinctive guys that couldn't/wouldn't grasp the concept.

As a novice archer but an experienced outdoor air rifle shooter, I find it a little surprising this caused any argument.The trajectory won't be exactly the same shape as that of a bullet or an air rifle pellet, but (assuming on a planet with gravity!) it will be curved and roughly parabolic.
It's also fascinating to me that the apogee is around the same distance as a UK legal limit .177 air rifle, which is roughly 22-25 yards

 

[steve Morley]

It has been suggested that if the bow was put in a Hooter shooter the drop would be much bigger at 30y, an interesting human idea/concept that the human eye/brain can change the perception of my aim, as I move back the spot is getting smaller and the arrow point in relation to the spot is actually getting bigger, it is possible as this relationship changes with distance it allows me to adjust in some way in keeping closer to the spot than a Hooter shoot would. It could just be my brain is taking advantage of an optical illusion to keep me on target. Or maybe I'm in the Matrix and I can alter the flight path of arrows lol

Been a good discussion so far on Tradtalk.

 

[JohnK]

There's an easy way to test that. Get some photos taken of yourself in profile at full draw at the different distances, with the camera set dead level on a tripod.

Then take the photos and compare them to see whether there's any difference in the elevation of your bow arm.

 

[geoffretired]

I think the situation where the sight marks move down at shorter ranges is due to the fact that the eye level is not the same as the projectile level.
The reason the faster rile has an apogee at about the same range as a slower arrow is, I guess, to do with the distance between the two levels. With the rifle, eye level is much closer to the barrel. If rifle shooters set up their aim by looking through the barrel( weapon in a fixed support) then loaded, the shot would land on target for point blank range and slowly drop below the target at any other distance unless the barrel was aimed higher each increase in distance. There would be no crossover distance.
I think the hooter shooter might appear to drop more if the aiming is done by sighting along the arrow rather than a bow sight. Just guessing on that one, but there would be no apogee to give the illusion of dropping beyond 20y or thereabouts. It would be dropping all the time compared to point blank.

 

[joetapley]

'Course the real answer is that you are one of the seven dwarves .
At ten yards to hit the middle your bow angle has to be upwards around 5 degrees. The arrow is traveling upwards as it hits the target. If you go to a longer distance then of course your arrow is going to hit higher. Depending on arrow speed it's not till you reach 30 yards that the arrow is going to drop to the same height as the 10 yard distance.

 

[JohnK]

Steve - As an aside, your experience with the CV limbs has helped convinced me to order a set: 72in, 35lbs@32in draw. Fairly light, but as I'm still having a little shoulder trouble they'll suit me well as a bridge to my 40lbs HEX7s on my target rig, and will be fun to shoot barebow off my Intrepid riser

 

[steve Morley]

Steve - As an aside, your experience with the CV limbs has helped convinced me to order a set:

A very underrated limb, all the attention is on the Hex products, I've not found a conventional limb to match it for torsional stiffness and speed. I would have ordered a 36# set of CV's for indoor world champs in 2 weeks but the waiting time was too long, I got the KStorm instead, I'm finding it a very capable limb with a lovely soft draw and hold at anchor, my only gripe on this limb is they wont fit on the Vanquish (39# min) because of the limb slot is a very flat profile, I have it on the Moon riser set at 35#. I had the Hex6 before apart from the feel they appeared to have similar speed to the Cv's, nver had the chance to put through a Chrono but the point on is identical 60y.

Last year I got some 42# Elite+ short limbs as backups for the CV's, these are also very soft draw and shoot really well, interesting thing is Katrin got long 34# Elite+ limbs and they feel horrible (stack), I suppose this is the risk with lower/mid priced limbs some will turn out to be dogs and if you're lucky you find a gem pair that shoot great.

 

[JohnK]

You're absolutely right. When you pay more, you're not only paying for the design, but also quality control.

I'd have happily bought a set of HEX6.5 or 7 limbs to bridge the gap, only the CV limbs seem to be just as good for my purposes. They have a light mass weight, are going to be incredibly stable, and at a 32in barebow draw I'll have more than enough energy going into the arrow to manage field course distances

 

[mrtufty]

Set yourself up so you can execute the shot with 100% confidence, hoping is just not enough.
Hope this helps.

Agreed, some people are just amazed when - finally - they shoot blank boss and the group size shrinks amazingly!

For the tradtalk doubters point them in the direction of the FITA/WA intermediate barebow coaching manual

 

[Valkamai]

Steve,
Apart from the argument that you are subconsciously adjusting yourself (personally think that is highly possible with someone of your experience, especially your longbow heritage) does it hold true for shots that are either uphill or downhill where gravity effects the arrow trajectory differently ?
Thanks

Btw my phone wanted to autocorrect longbow to "lingerie" that would have given the question a different approach !

Sent from my GT-I8160 using Tapatalk 2

 

[steve Morley]

Steve,
does it hold true for shots that are either uphill or downhill where gravity effects the arrow trajectory differently ?
Thanks

This is a great example of up/down shooting from Dave Cousins and the cuts you need to make, with a 300fps Compound when you see the differences with Daves setup it helps you understand the importance on slower bows. When I shot Longbow I went mostly by feel/experience but now Barebow, Stringwalking understanding the cuts really helps me with the consistency. I used to be good at Up/Down shots some good courses in the UK but Estonia is flat as a pancake (300m above sea level is the highest point) I have to rely a bit more on the maths more than experience now.

Although our home course is flat, we've built some towers to get some angle shots, this shot totally screwed the Compounds with back tension release lol

Watch part 2 & 3 as well

[video=youtube;G3XeaWt7huQ]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G3XeaWt7huQ[/video]

 

[JohnK]

Bloody hell! You'd have to have a good head for heights on that stand!