At what point are arrows too stiff or too weak????

[buzz lite beer]

As the title:- Every archer who does a bare shaft tune/test wants the results to show fletched and unfletched arrows within a couple of inches of each other.
Is this found to be totally necessary for an archer to group well or is it even required to get arrows to impact centrally at all shooting distances?
Are there archers who have "successfully" achieved a good bare shaft tune only to find they still have to adjust sight windage at each distance, Why do you think this the case?
Is all that is fundamentally required from an arrow to shoot accurately and consistently just plain old "clearance"?

 

[geoffretired]

We read on here quite often, that an archer has good groups but bare shafts land to one side or the other about 6" or more away. It seems that a close enough match to get the groups side by side is not necessary for good groups.

 

[commissar]

having to adjust windage when changing distance could be due to the sight not being set up level so as the pin is moved up or down it also moves left or right slightly

 

[mrtufty]

Is all that is fundamentally required from an arrow to shoot accurately and consistently just plain old "clearance"?

Yes for the arrow to shoot consistently. With the bareshaft tuning there is an assumption that a close bareshaft will be more forgiving of variations in archer shooting hence better groups

...or is it even required to get arrows to impact centrally at all shooting distances?

Probably (unless some other variation compensates accordingly). bareshaft tuning aims to show there is no rotation or deviation of shaft alignment to line of motion - thereby minimising curving or waggling/inefficient flight

Are there archers who have "successfully" achieved a good bare shaft tune only to find they still have to adjust sight windage at each distance, Why do you think this the case?

hmm, can't find Joe's false tuning page anymore.
if only bareshaft checked at one distance then tuning is not sure - need to do multiple distances.
If done multiple distances then shouldn't need to change windage (everything else being correct and consistent...)

Is this found to be totally necessary for an archer to group well

You're better placed to tell us - detune your bow and see what happens!

PS although after detuning you would probably still get good groups whereas I couldn't tell the difference if i did it

 

[hooktonboy]

...
Is all that is fundamentally required from an arrow to shoot accurately and consistently just plain old "clearance"?

Ho ho, I like that question...

Here's a few ill-conceived thoughts.

As you need clearance, that means that the arrows can only be "so" weak or "so" stiff or else you won't get it. After that, I'm sure it's desirable to have the sight pin somewhere near the middle of its travel when aiming at the centre, because sight pins are fairly short.

As for accurate and consistent. With adequate clearance being a given to avoid interference, consistent grouping is mainly about the archers skill, isn't it? Provided there's clearance I'm pretty sure a Hooter would shoot arrows into the back of each other all day? You might have to aim way off to get them in the middle, I suppose, but there quite a lot of archers with that kind of set-up (sight pin not over the arrow).

On the other hand, if sight pins were, say, three times the length, you might start to struggle to get good body alignment|? So the tune affects your form (admittedly an extreme example....)

I think that plenty of us never get beyond the first stage of tuning with bareshaft. Isn't the idea, once you're satisfied with the basic tune, to tune for the smallest groups (i.e the best match between bow, arrow, and your form)? Once you've got the smallest groups, there's a better than even chance that if you shoot a bareshaft it won't then land within the group? I read that people used to do a bareshaft after fine tuning, only to know that if you had to retune quickly, your reference was to get the same relationship between fletched and bareshaft (not the same as landing in the same place).

Hmmm, brain perhaps not working so well tonight.

Other reasons for not having a consistent centre shot / retune - slight canting, slight form changes with different distances......

 

[blakey]

As the title:- Every archer who does a bare shaft tune/test wants the results to show fletched and unfletched arrows within a couple of inches of each other.
Is all that is fundamentally required from an arrow to shoot accurately and consistently just plain old "clearance"?

This fascinates me because I just don't get it? My best scores were shot when learning to shoot barebow on a light Polaris. I was getting in the 1000s. Then someone said that they thought the tails of my arrows were hitting the riser on the way through. Can't remember how they knew this, probably it was their eyesight, half the time I can't see what I'm doing! When I finally got round to bareshaft tuning I discovered they were right. I was shooting 600s, way too stiff, because I should have been using 900s! I have since got serious, bought the correct arrows, etc. but I cannot get those scores. This has led me to a couple of conclusions, probably highly dubious: 1. Clearance is not necessarily an issue as long as each arrow hits the riser in exactly the same way (perfect form?), 2. I need to drink more in order to get the necessary level of mental relaxation. What do you think? Cheers

 

[EVC]

having to adjust windage when changing distance could be due to the sight not being set up level so as the pin is moved up or down it also moves left or right slightly

Not necessarily. I have windage problems and still my sight is perfectly aligned with the string. BS grouped well with fletched ones at 18m.

 

[EVC]

Once you've got the smallest groups, there's a better than even chance that if you shoot a bareshaft it won't then land within the group? I read that people used to do a bareshaft after fine tuning, only to know that if you had to retune quickly, your reference was to get the same relationship between fletched and bareshaft (not the same as landing in the same place).

Rick McKinney, The Simple Art of Winning.

 

[hooktonboy]

Rick McKinney, The Simple Art of Winning.

Still my favourite........all the others are filed, but my copy of Rick's book is well-used

 

[jerryRTD]

Are there archers who have "successfully" achieved a good bare shaft tune only to find they still have to adjust sight windage at each distance, Why do you think this the case?

When you have eliminated spine error the only error you have left is center shot.

 

[buzz lite beer]

Well after some raking around in the shed yesterday morning I managed to lay my hands on several disused but serviceable shafts in the form of:- 2x 620 ACE, 1x 570 ACE, and 2x 470 ACE all fitted with 110gn point weight, not enough quantities of arrows for group testing but all passed the bows arrow shelf without scrapping any foot spray off!! (each shot from my bow at 45.8lb draw weight)

 

[mrtufty]

Is all that is fundamentally required from an arrow to shoot accurately and consistently just plain old "clearance"?

and also: why do most advanced tuning methods advocate adjusting things (eg nocking point, pressure button tension to name but two) to achieve tighter groups?
If this is true - what's happening here? more "forgiveness" or better launch (eg more efficient flight) so less variation due to less "flapping" about (the arrow not the archer...)

 

[Easily Confused]

Until recently I was using arrows that were a fair bit too weak (Cartel triple 400s which I believe to be around 500 easton spine) but decided to bite the bullet and buy some nice shiny ACE 400s. If I'm honest I wasn't expecting to see the difference that I have. I could make the old arrows group acceptably but my form would have to be very consistent as the setup was extremely critical of errors. I still got some reasonable scores (not fantastic but 552 on a fita 18 for example) but only managed two six gold ends all season as a small error would result in an 8. Since getting the new arrows I've had three six gold ends in a couple of weeks and an end whilst doing 70m tuning where every arrow (3 fletched 2 bare) were golds as well.

Not sure if I would have seen such a change if I was just one or two spines out before but it did seem to make a great difference to me.

 

[backinblack]

Well after some raking around in the shed yesterday morning I managed to lay my hands on several disused but serviceable shafts in the form of:- 2x 620 ACE, 1x 570 ACE, and 2x 470 ACE all fitted with 110gn point weight, not enough quantities of arrows for group testing but all passed the bows arrow shelf without scrapping any foot spray off!! (each shot from my bow at 45.8lb draw weight)

Buzz,

Surely you know the answer to your own question: wasn't it you who posted some pictures on here of an end shot at 50m where the bareshaft was barely on the boss (left) but you had stuffed six arrows into the gold?

Regards,
Backinblack

 

[buzz lite beer]

just a poser for people to think about and discuss.....The more I think about it and the more tinkering I do, the less evidence I find to say Bare shaft tuning is of any great value.

 

[Bald Eagle]

I think you could be right there! Use it to set your nocking point,north south,and your button, east west, at 20 yds, then go shoot your bow!!

 

[commissar]

Not necessarily. I have windage problems and still my sight is perfectly aligned with the string. BS grouped well with fletched ones at 18m.

you could be canting the bow slightly then
that will have the same effect as an unlevel sight


if your fletched arrows go where you want them it doesnt matter if the bare shaft is miles away as you dont shoot bareshafts in a round

 

[Moose]

From what I can tell all you get from bare shaft tuning is evidence you don't have a clean loose!

courtesy of moose on the loose

 

[Big.Dave]

just a poser for people to think about and discuss.....The more I think about it and the more tinkering I do, the less evidence I find to say Bare shaft tuning is of any great value.

Yes and no at 20yrds my bare shaft and fletched group together nicely. but this is as far as it goes at 30m the reading is different it suggests nock point too low and arrows too stiff but this is not the case. I always shoot 3 fletched and 3 bare shaft in random order.

So at 30m I look at groupings first my fletched group must be tight and the bare shaft should be tight as well this tells me that theres no clearance issues because if there was the bare shafts would not group.
Also I only shoot on a solid foam boss for tuning not a layered and I look at how the bare shaft sticks in the boss they must be in dead straight no left or right or up down nock end bias.

I then go out to 70m and look at my fletched arrow groupings no bare shafts are used at this distance. did this check this afternoon and robin hooded one of my nice new ACE's on their first fully tuned outing.

 

[EVC]

you could be canting the bow slightly then that will have the same effect as an unlevel sight

I think you are right - though I fear I was canting it more than slightly . That is surely one thing I must pay a lot of attention when I go outdoors in few weeks.

I still deem bare shaft test as a useful tool to verify if the dynamic spine of the arrows is close to the optimum for the bow.