What should we discuss next?

Bandit

Member
Now if you're anywhere near Portsmouth I can help you with longbow coaching, I'm not a great coach, but not too bad. Compound, it sounds like you're already beyond me. In my mind one of the things about a good coach is that they know their limits.
Thanks for the offer 👍I’m in Yorkshire though so that’s not practical. My wife shoots longbow now as she finds it less stressful physically. I love making arrows so it’s all good.
 


Bandit

Member
I think this is one of the best, if not the best indicators if you know what the coaching levels are.

The next best :)
If I were to dedicate time to being coached I would also want to spend some time with the coach and talking to the coach before committing to being coached.

You should be able to get that information from your county archery association. In Kent we have the Invicta Coaching Group, but I have never approached them.
Thanks for the input. I’ll see how it goes next season. I’m feeling reasonably confident I’ll be OK on my own for now.
 


geoffretired

Supporter
Supporter
In order to keep this thread alive, perhaps we could chat about.... the items we attach to our bows. ( Sorry if that excludes longbows or barebows... but everyone is welcome to join in )
IF we add an item to our bow, .... (A button, a sight, clicker, stabilisers or limb dampers....) I guess the reason is , we think it will improve something.
Usually, the changes they bring are for the better. We see changes that, otherwise, might not have happened.
IF the addition makes things worse; we may remove it, or we may carry on/ struggle on and try to make it work to our advantage.
Some items seem like a safer bet than others. A long rod tends to get a positive response almost immediately. Clickers tend to have mixed responses, like Marmite.
If we can ignore the negative side of this for the moment and concentrate on the positive improvements we tend to see, perhaps you can help clear up some thoughts I have.
Let me use the long rod example again. Many add one to their bow and get smaller groups almost from the first few shots. It steadies the bow and it sometimes seems to steady the sight. The shots can feel better. The bow doesn't twist during the power stroke in the same way. The bow feels easier to hold and there can be benefits for those who have become used to grabbing the bow as it felt like it was going to fall.
Take off the long rod and the shot goes back to feeling as it did before.... so put it back on again.
What I am interested in, is what happens next, and how did that almost instant improvement set the scene for further additions.
I often find there is a follow up where side rods get added. Extensions and more weights may come next.
I am not always convinced that the extras( after the single long rod) actually bring real benefits. It's as if the archer thought that if the long rod worked then more bits like it will bring further improvements. Having paid for them, there is often a reluctance to take them off, so they never find out if they have gone too far.
 


Bandit

Member
In order to keep this thread alive, perhaps we could chat about.... the items we attach to our bows. ( Sorry if that excludes longbows or barebows... but everyone is welcome to join in )
IF we add an item to our bow, .... (A button, a sight, clicker, stabilisers or limb dampers....) I guess the reason is , we think it will improve something.
Usually, the changes they bring are for the better. We see changes that, otherwise, might not have happened.
IF the addition makes things worse; we may remove it, or we may carry on/ struggle on and try to make it work to our advantage.
Some items seem like a safer bet than others. A long rod tends to get a positive response almost immediately. Clickers tend to have mixed responses, like Marmite.
If we can ignore the negative side of this for the moment and concentrate on the positive improvements we tend to see, perhaps you can help clear up some thoughts I have.
Let me use the long rod example again. Many add one to their bow and get smaller groups almost from the first few shots. It steadies the bow and it sometimes seems to steady the sight. The shots can feel better. The bow doesn't twist during the power stroke in the same way. The bow feels easier to hold and there can be benefits for those who have become used to grabbing the bow as it felt like it was going to fall.
Take off the long rod and the shot goes back to feeling as it did before.... so put it back on again.
What I am interested in, is what happens next, and how did that almost instant improvement set the scene for further additions.
I often find there is a follow up where side rods get added. Extensions and more weights may come next.
I am not always convinced that the extras( after the single long rod) actually bring real benefits. It's as if the archer thought that if the long rod worked then more bits like it will bring further improvements. Having paid for them, there is often a reluctance to take them off, so they never find out if they have gone too far.
I think the kings new cloths plays a part with some bolt on bits. The price of some long rods is insane IMHO. If we check out scores from 15 years ago and compare them to now have they improved much? Whats with the trend to add large weights to compound bows? it's not uncommon to see 16oz on the long rod :eek: And yes I'm currently experimenting with this.
 


KidCurry

Well-known member
Whats with the trend to add large weights to compound bows? it's not uncommon to see 16oz on the long rod :eek: And yes I'm currently experimenting with this.
Stability. Just before I finished shooting compound I had about 14oz on the front and 22oz on the back.
I think going for the latest stuff is a bit of 'Emperors new clothes' but lots of archers love using new things just for the enjoyment of it. In terms of if they make improvements then I would say generally they do at introduction but less so as the price goes up, but can also cover up faults.
It's difficult to quantify 'add-ons' on an absolute performance scale but I think it's easier to quantify 'add-ons' on a point/£ scale. On this scale it would probably be, over and above basic setup and ignoring the human equation:
1. Clicker
3. Sight
4. Carbon arrows (exculding X10s and nono's etc)
5. Finger sling
6. Good shelf tab
7. Stabiliser Long rod
8. Expensive button
9. Stabiliser side rod/s
10. Extra weight
11. Custom grip (not including reduced ability adaptions)
12. Doinkers
13. Limb dampeners
 


KidCurry

Well-known member
Did you shoot better for it? How did it effect your scores?
I would say definitely, but there must be some caveat here. To carry that sort of weight takes a lot of practice. A lot of practice generally will make you a better archer :) Outdoors it helped control the float and wind movement by slowing it down considerably. Indoors it just meant it rarely drifted out of the ten. But it is not for everyone as you need to be able to hold the weight for a long time. If you fatigue under the weight you have too much.
 


Bandit

Member
I would say definitely, but there must be some caveat here. To carry that sort of weight takes a lot of practice. A lot of practice generally will make you a better archer :) Outdoors it helped control the float and wind movement by slowing it down considerably. Indoors it just meant it rarely drifted out of the ten. But it is not for everyone.
Indeed my bow shoulder is getting a workout for sure, I quite like it though. I'm doing a steady 100 arrows a day at the moment so should be OK
 


geoffretired

Supporter
Supporter
Thanks for the comments and the orderly list.
I can see that for some, more stabilisation is beneficial. They add items, to a plan, and test results as they go along.
For many of the archers I deal with or see at the club, their routine is to shoot a few dozen and go home. There is no working at home; no exercising to build up strength or stamina or fitness; just shooting when they come to the club.
What makes me a little "doubtful" is the way more and more items end up on their bows, with little thought about what they are doing for their archery. They see others using them and copy.
Their draw weight is often around 26 -28lb and the mass weight has increased to something I would imagine they find difficult to hold, if they can only manage a low draw weight. I don't know that they shoot enough arrows to build up their strength in proportion to the increased mass weight.
This is me thinking aloud. It may not be the right train of thought, however.
 


Kernowlad

Active member
A bit more stabilisation definitely helped my shooting. Strength wise I am constantly doing various exercises from surfing, sea swimming to running, cycling and weights. Only a lifelong shoulder niggle causes the odd issue.
 


Bandit

Member
Thanks for the comments and the orderly list.
I can see that for some, more stabilisation is beneficial. They add items, to a plan, and test results as they go along.
For many of the archers I deal with or see at the club, their routine is to shoot a few dozen and go home. There is no working at home; no exercising to build up strength or stamina or fitness; just shooting when they come to the club.
What makes me a little "doubtful" is the way more and more items end up on their bows, with little thought about what they are doing for their archery. They see others using them and copy.
Their draw weight is often around 26 -28lb and the mass weight has increased to something I would imagine they find difficult to hold, if they can only manage a low draw weight. I don't know that they shoot enough arrows to build up their strength in proportion to the increased mass weight.
This is me thinking aloud. It may not be the right train of thought, however.
Yup sounds about right. Most people in our club only shoot at the club. To be fair we all get different things out of archery and have different goals though
 


geoffretired

Supporter
Supporter
Yes, indeed, archery is for the archer and they decide what they put in and what they want to get out.
My question, I suppose in a nutshell, would be , Are some club archers adding too much mass to their bows, for the wrong reasons?
If they can gain about 20 points by adding a long rod, do they reason that with two side rods they can add another 20 points.
 


Bandit

Member
Yes, indeed, archery is for the archer and they decide what they put in and what they want to get out.
My question, I suppose in a nutshell, would be , Are some club archers adding too much mass to their bows, for the wrong reasons?
If they can gain about 20 points by adding a long rod, do they reason that with two side rods they can add another 20 points.
In my humble experience yes people do think they can buy points. To some extent you can depending on what level of progress you are at. I noticed an improvement when I swapped ACG arrows to X10 arrows.

What goes through peoples heads beats me. Bolting bits on a bow without knowing why seems a like an excuse for some good old retail therapy. Been there and done that. :rolleyes:

You simply can't buy experience and practice
 


geoffretired

Supporter
Supporter
I think we are agreed on that.
Sometimes I think that archers can fall into a state of mind where a change has a good effect, so they try a "next level" version of that successful change. So a long rod can be followed by further rods, or even a "better" rod. A sight is followed by a better sight. A button by a better button.
So often on here I read posts from fairly new archers saying they NEED a better........... whatever.
I think my pet item in this sort of thinking is the arrow rest, particularly on compounds.
The blade, when attached to a rigid support( bodywork) does the same job whatever the cost of the bodywork.
 


Bandit

Member
I think we are agreed on that.
Sometimes I think that archers can fall into a state of mind where a change has a good effect, so they try a "next level" version of that successful change. So a long rod can be followed by further rods, or even a "better" rod. A sight is followed by a better sight. A button by a better button.
So often on here I read posts from fairly new archers saying they NEED a better........... whatever.
I think my pet item in this sort of thinking is the arrow rest, particularly on compounds.
The blade, when attached to a rigid support( bodywork) does the same job whatever the cost of the bodywork.
What's your opinion of drop away rests Geoff?
 


geoffretired

Supporter
Supporter
I think they are good. I have tried a few and made my own. I can shoot mine as a fixed rest, a limb dropper type, or cable attachment.
The blade only needs to drop a couple of mm in order for fletching to clear.
I made one some years ago that I could adjust the drop time. It could drop at any time between just too early or just too late.
The just too early was clearly of no value, but it meant I could get very close to that and see what happens. Too late, gave the same effect as a fixed rest, as dropping after the arrow is clear is just wasted effort.
I did notice the arrows moved to one side if I set it to fixed compared to drop away. I could not detect differences between dropping earlier or later on the time adjustment. I guess a shooting machine would be needed, to properly test the settings.
The limb dropper drops late usually, a cable operated drops early usually. I contacted limb dropper suggesting that a late drop was actually a long support, a bit like a long barrel on a rifle compared to short barrel pistol. They agreed.
I suggested the same thoughts to a cable type dropper manufacturer but had no response.
 


Whitehart

Well-known member
Sorry if that excludes longbows or barebows... but everyone is welcome to join in )
But back in the 60's you could add a metal sight and a cigarette holder to a longbow :)

Barebow archers now seem to have more options than recurve - blades, hammers, grips, weights, strings, rests, buttons different arrows for different distances even changing limb weights for a specific distance even tabs about the only missing item is a sight
 


geoffretired

Supporter
Supporter
Heehee the good old days! There must be some groups of longbow archers who still shoot with their friends and accept metal sights with cigarette holders, Small informal groups with their own rules or their own freedom from.
 


Bandit

Member
I think they are good. I have tried a few and made my own. I can shoot mine as a fixed rest, a limb dropper type, or cable attachment.
The blade only needs to drop a couple of mm in order for fletching to clear.
I made one some years ago that I could adjust the drop time. It could drop at any time between just too early or just too late.
The just too early was clearly of no value, but it meant I could get very close to that and see what happens. Too late, gave the same effect as a fixed rest, as dropping after the arrow is clear is just wasted effort.
I did notice the arrows moved to one side if I set it to fixed compared to drop away. I could not detect differences between dropping earlier or later on the time adjustment. I guess a shooting machine would be needed, to properly test the settings.
The limb dropper drops late usually, a cable operated drops early usually. I contacted limb dropper suggesting that a late drop was actually a long support, a bit like a long barrel on a rifle compared to short barrel pistol. They agreed.
I suggested the same thoughts to a cable type dropper manufacturer but had no response.
Interesting stuff. Can you recommend a specific make/model or should I stick with my blade rest ( Mybo )
 


geoffretired

Supporter
Supporter
The last time I bought a rest, blades had yet to hit the scene. heehee.
If the blade doesn't hit the back end of the arrow, I can't see any advantage having a drop away. I have read on here from good archers/coaches that even catching the back isn't that serious. The other side of the coin; some say the delicate mechanisms inside some are not worth the risk of a breakage.These tend to be the ones that reset themselves after shooting.
The one I made is a rugged see saw type where the blade rotates on one end of the central axle, and the lever that drops the blade is on the other end facing the opposite direction.( I guess the principle is just like the two cranks that hold the pedals on a bike.) My rest is stronger, though.heehee
 


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